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new to html ....site is a complete disaster in Netscape
where do I start
LateNight




msg:595604
 8:32 pm on Jul 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hi,
I really have no experience or background in HTML or computers in general....but I managed to scrap together a site based on htmlgoodies etc. I thought my site looked not bad until I viewed it today. I have been put together the site based on how it viewed in Explorer......then today I became horrified when I saw how it appears in Netscape/Mozzila. Where can I get a crash course in browsers.......what a nightmare

 

legster




msg:595605
 9:58 pm on Jul 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

If your talking old netscape it may not like some advanced CSS.

If it is just html your using, use an html validator to check your code and make sure there are no errors. IE tends to be more forgiving. If your missing some closing table tags IE will ignore it and display it properly, but Netscape could mess the whole thing up.

That's just a good place to start. :)

LateNight




msg:595606
 10:26 pm on Jul 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

I think I have started to fix it.....CCS was part of the problem and I did not have document declarations. Is this the correct format for document declaration :

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/loose.dtd">

Now to work on validating the HTML.

tedster




msg:595607
 11:07 pm on Jul 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

Your DTD is close -- but HTML 4.0 was very short-lived and is not one of the valid DTDs from the W3C [w3.org]. For transitional HTML 4.01, use:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

Imaster




msg:595608
 11:55 pm on Jul 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

Latenight,

Check out some tutorials on html on the internet

Introduction to HTML [cwru.edu]

Browser Quirks[url]

[url=http://www.delorie.com/web/wpbcv.html]Web Page Backward Compatibility Viewer [developer.apple.com]- Good tool to help you debug the code by selecting individual components and thus finding out the actual culprit.

LateNight




msg:595609
 12:23 am on Jul 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

Thanks for the advice and ifo. Why do people use Netscape and the various other browsers...I would imagine they would constantly encounter sites that appear messed up.

tedster




msg:595610
 12:49 am on Jul 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

It seems hard to remember right now, but Netscape was there before Microsoft ever released Explorer.

I began using Netscape in 1995 -- it was the bee's knees for many many years. When Explorer finally got decent, I was so familiar with Netscape, had my email there, etc., that I had no obvious reason to change. But because I was creating web pages, I did start testing sites in Explorer. However, there were many like me who stayed with the browser they loved.

After all, the idea of HTML is that it delivers information independent of the user agent.

It quickly became clear that Explorer was quite insecure - exploit after exploit was uncovered - so I never used it as my default browser. I found Opera around version 3, and that became my default browser, because even in those earlier versions it had such a small footprint and loaded pages so fast.

And besides, I'm very wary of Microsoft's dominance. So I "think globally and act locally."

legster




msg:595611
 3:06 pm on Jul 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

To add to what Tedster said I asked this myself. Since a majority of my work involves catering to that small percentage of people using Netscape. One thing that was pointed out to me is like what Tedster said about Security. Although Netscape 4 is buggy visually it's considered much more secure. Alot of our customers who use Netscape 4 we have found out are coming from Military bases. Also some companies, and probably the military won't allow users to upgrade software.

Farix




msg:595612
 3:11 pm on Jul 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Why do people use Netscape and the various other browsers...I would imagine they would constantly encounter sites that appear messed up."

Because browsers such as Netscape 7/Mozilla and Opera are better browsers. They don't have the security holes that MSIE is notorious for, don't have near the rendering bugs, more fully support HTML and CSS standards and have innovative features such as tab browsing and for Netscape 7/Mozilla a built in popup blocker.

Now let me flip the question. Other then being preloaded on every Windows machine, why would anyone want to use MSIE?

hutcheson




msg:595613
 11:35 pm on Aug 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

>...a majority of my work involves catering to that small percentage of people using Netscape.

I design to documented HTML specifications. It takes very little time to cater to Netscape 4--it either ignores or correctly treats nearly everything. It takes a great deal of time to figure out why the IE doesn't do what the documentation says, but it basically never does.

Hardwood Guy




msg:595614
 5:34 pm on Aug 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

Farix:

"why would anyone want to use MSIE?" The average surfer doesn't know the difference. I know my html is off but frankly I see less than 4% using Netscape with my traffic.

g1smd




msg:595615
 9:08 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

>> I know my html is off <<

Fix it up, otherwise it makes you look lazy to those in the know (and that is a rapidly growing group).

wkitty42




msg:595616
 9:24 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

IMNSHO, the worst thing that IE ever did (and is still doing) is to "complete" HTML code that is not complete...

for example, a friend had one of those "shake the world" pages where the entire browser window is moved about the screen very rapidly with the movement getting smaller and smaller until the browser is back where it started... the code he had worked fine in IE but not at all in netscape... after some digging, i found the problem to be a form tag that was being used without any form container surrounding it... once that was sussed out, the script worked in both browsers...

another example is i see pages all the time that come up blank in netscape/mozilla but work ok in IE... again, digging in, i'll find garbage like no close to a table container or no close to a form container and other such drek...

hartlandcat




msg:595617
 10:03 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'm currently making a new blog site. It used translucent PNG div backgrounds and fixed positioning -- as a result, it looks great in recent versions of Netscape and Opera, but really bad in IE.

Farix




msg:595618
 11:21 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

"why would anyone want to use MSIE?" The average surfer doesn't know the difference. I know my html is off but frankly I see less than 4% using Netscape with my traffic.

You entirely cut off the first part of my question.

Other then being preloaded on every Windows machine,

You didn't even answer my question either. Your "doesn't know the difference" excuse falls right into the exception that I have already stated.

woodman




msg:595619
 9:31 am on Aug 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Why do people use Netscape and the various other browsers...I would imagine they would constantly encounter sites that appear messed up."

Universities are a large contributor to Netscape usage too. In late 2001 I asked the top sysadmin at my old uni about it - and they prefer to rollout Netscape across the campus. It's the same at others (in the UK at least).

hartlandcat




msg:595620
 8:11 pm on Aug 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Universities are a large contributer to Netscape 4 usage, and to a lesser extent, Netscape 6 usage. Sadly, few have seen the light to upgrade. Someone on another forum said that when they asked their school IT admin as to why they hadn't upgraded from Netscape 4.7 to Netscape 7.0, they were told that "Netscape hasn't changed much since 4.7" -- that's got to be one of the stupidist things I've ever heard.

PatrickDeese




msg:595621
 8:20 pm on Aug 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

The point of making compliant sites is that there is a certain segment of your website visitors that *cannot* use Internet Explorer to view your site:

1) Visually impaired users of screen readers

2) search engine bots

I always check my sites in lynx to make sure they make sense to people using screen readers.

In general, a screen reader compatible / HTML standards compliant site will outperform a non-compliant site, and will have longevity. That means when IE 7.0 gets released your site has better odds of continuing compatibility. IMHO.

hartlandcat




msg:595622
 8:45 pm on Aug 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

Why are we forgetting people that use OSs that IE cannot be installed? Linux, BSD, OS/2 Warp, BeOS, Amiga, AtheOS and WebTV (if you can call that an OS) are among the most popular. MacIE has now been discontinued, and also used a different rendering engine from WinIE. IE is no longer availible for Solaris, Irix, HPux and other Unix flavours (so only those that had Unix a few years ago can use IE on there).

IE 7.0 will not "get released". The only way to upgrade IE in the future will be to upgrade Windows.

worker




msg:595623
 8:55 pm on Aug 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

I've heard of Netscape but never seen it. Isn't that one of those old time internet programs?

Go IE!

; )

hartlandcat




msg:595624
 9:46 pm on Aug 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'm sorry Woker, but that post is not going to go down too well on this forum. I'm assuming that you are a webmaster, as you are posting on this forum. I hope that for your visitors sake, you are joking about having "never seen Netscape", and that you actually do test your site in it. Although a minority, not everyone in the world uses IE, and I am proudly in that minority. Netscape is not an "old" program. The most recent version (7.1) was released just over a month ago. Sadly, there will not be any more versions from now on, but there will still be Mozilla (and many other browsers) which use the same redering engine as Netscape 7 -- most Netscape users will eventually switch to one of these, rather than IE. I cannot understand how you can assume Netscape to be rubbish when you have never seen it.

Contrary to popular belief, version 4.7 is not the most recent version of Netscape. It has changed a LOT since then, despite what some mad IT department admins seem to think.

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