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Applying Revenue models to WebmasterWorld
Some current lines of thinking.

 4:40 pm on Jun 15, 2001 (gmt 0)

Specific ideas on applying revenue models to WebmasterWorld:

Banners: standard 468x68 banners.
Comments: I don't care for banners on a forum system. To me, they look cheap and affect the quality of posting throughout the forums.
They tend to give a "dime store" run-of-the-mill feel to a place. That's not saying I think banners are bad. One look over at SearchEngineWorld tells you I know they can be effective revenue generators.
I just don't care for them in a forum setting. Pages are reloaded so many times, that grabbing a banner on every page is annoying and cheap.
I don't care for this option - doesn't mean it might not be implemented.

Pros: Potential for lucrative targeted advertising. Easily setup. No fuss management by 3rd party. Say yes, and a check comes once a month with little effort.
Cons: Speed, dependency, quality, counter to WebmasterWorld branding, cheap.

Text Based Advertising:
I like the idea of text based advertising. The one stumbling block is that there are no text based advertising networks. That means they must be managed start-to-finish in house. It would require 100 fold the effort and time that banner advertising would. There are also questions about their real effectiveness.

Pros: highly targeted, control of ads, noninvasive to user, fast loading, custom tailored to advertiser, easily tracked.
Cons: must do 100% of ad management, sales, tracking, puts site in direct competition with search engines.

Subscription Based Site:
Subscription based offers some unique opportunities for the site and for members (see below).
Pros: 3rd party managed, liability control, security, maintains branding, easily managed from server side.
Cons: Cuts off part of membership base accessibility to features, cost.

To kick around the idea of a subscription based model, I was thinking in these terms:
- content would be enhanced with monthly newsletters rounding up the best info found in the forums.
- content would include monthly advanced seo topics (the really good stuff that we rarely bring up in public here).
- would include tools from search engine world + several new tools not shown to public yet.
- users private page with personal server monitoring tools and se rank watching tools.
- on-the-fly algo investigator tool.
- text or banner based ads in non-subscription area.
- new tutor forum for "review me" posts for quality feedback on your site.



 5:32 pm on Jun 15, 2001 (gmt 0)

Great ideas Brett, especially the added resources that could be made available thru a subscription based model. It would seem ideal if you could manage to maintain the present forum for free and simply add enhanced services in a subscription based addition/spin-off. One problem: we made need to clone you.


 6:04 pm on Jun 15, 2001 (gmt 0)

The Subscription Based offer seems terrific!

I would apply immediately!
How much would it cost?

I am a paid subscriber of Searchengine-news and Searchengine-watch but often I get here most of their "news"; I am sure that Danny Sallivan and Stephen have a nickname here!



 10:06 pm on Jun 15, 2001 (gmt 0)

I like all 3:)


 12:31 am on Jun 16, 2001 (gmt 0)

I think a careful blend of free forums and subscription content would work best. Sounds like there is more than enough content to support both models.

Benefits of Subscription:
The number of banner ads necessary to pull revenue worthy of the "Best of Brett" would be astronomical. There is a reason you don't see the big research houses supporting their reports w/ banner ads. More subscribers = more revenue = more time & resources = more "really good stuff"

Benefits of Free Forums:
The dangers of going completely towards a "pay model" at the expense of the "free model" can be summed up in one word -- Inktomi. From a personal perspective, I shudder to think of the forums losing even one valued member due to cost considerations (and the worldly nature of WmW means a wide array of economic realities). From an economic perspective, having free forums makes good business sense. The subscription model would ultimately benefit from a continued influx of new members. Plus, there would be the option to run additional house ads for the subscription service in the event of unfavorable ad sales.


 5:59 am on Jun 16, 2001 (gmt 0)

Private and public forums should give you and us the best of both worlds. I know you have the ability to deliver the content that a private forum member would want.

Where do I sign up? Lets get the ball rolling:)


 6:42 am on Jun 16, 2001 (gmt 0)

Would making WMW pages password protected or whatever reduce their visibility in Search Engines? What are the strategies to deal with this weakened SE visibility? I am sure there are many.

Black Knight

 6:54 am on Jun 16, 2001 (gmt 0)

For me, any subscriptions would be balanced against the ROI. If something doesn't help me make money then I won't spend money on it. It's as simple as that.


 10:48 am on Jun 16, 2001 (gmt 0)

>- content would be enhanced with monthly newsletters rounding up the best info found in the forums.
>- content would include monthly advanced seo topics (the really good stuff that we rarely bring up in public here).
>- would include tools from search engine world + several new tools not shown to public yet.
>- users private page with personal server monitoring tools and se rank watching tools.
>- on-the-fly algo investigator tool.
>- text or banner based ads in non-subscription area.
>- new tutor forum for "review me" posts for quality feedback on your site.

I would love to have the option to pay for those extra services - as long as it was sensibly priced. Sounds absolutley excellent.


 11:28 am on Jun 16, 2001 (gmt 0)

I also believe the subsription based model is the best option. This place is already a gold mine for all members. The extra services proposed to subcribers are really great.

My little experience dealing with clients teached me that most people will agree with offerings but only 20% will sign the bill. :)

Having a rought idea of the subcription cost will give you a better feed back on the issue.


 3:46 pm on Jun 16, 2001 (gmt 0)

I don't think I stressed one point: this year, member posts and topics have been routinely cherry picked by sites, forums, articles, and newsletters. I'd guess on the order of 30-40 times it has happened this year (5 in the last week). Most of the time, that happens without accrediation or reference. They know where to come to find the lastest and best info. I would really mind if I didn't think we could sustain that. I do mind for the sake of the original poster. When topics or content is copied out, there are two victims - the community, and the original poster.

Moving to a subscription based model, would eliminate a great deal of that.


 11:56 am on Jun 17, 2001 (gmt 0)

First-time post by long time lurker. As a solo SEO consultant it's important that my time and money are invested wisely. Against that standard, a subscription fee for enhanced services would be a no-brainer based on my experience to date with these sites.


 1:37 pm on Jun 17, 2001 (gmt 0)

I will state that this forum and SEO, from months and months of research as a newbie to the entire SEO world, are the only forums i can say offer accurate and current advice.

I can research on any medium, with accredations after my name i am not in any way kidding.

Except for Deja (googlegroups) and a few similar, this is the only forum where my indecisions and ideas are giving grounding - via direct answers from great knowledge bases of the members of this site.

If i could only come to one location for any and all infromation, that was accurate, that would make my life alot simplier, to a lowly site developer hand submitting.

So subscription costs for knowledge - especially news and views that are currently out of the scope of WMW, because Brett and others have to also work, is cool by me.

Such as the following, though new members should have at least a week / month free access to all services, so that they can evaulate the benefits of subscription, and if the costs are not burning, then i don't see a problem.

- content would be enhanced with monthly newsletters rounding up the best info found in the forums.
- content would include monthly advanced seo topics (the really good stuff that we rarely bring up in public here).
- would include tools from search engine world + several new tools not shown to public yet.
- users private page with personal server monitoring tools and se rank watching tools.
- on-the-fly algo investigator tool.
- text or banner based ads in non-subscription area.
- new tutor forum for "review me" posts for quality feedback on your site.

i.e. nobody wants to pay, but they will if the benefits are large enough.


 5:51 pm on Jun 17, 2001 (gmt 0)

I think macguru has a point about people saying they will support something until it comes to paying the bill, especially when the actual cost is not yet known.

The problem I see with some info perhaps being reserved for the (paying) members is what about the new people, or the lurkers. I hit the site from a search engine and thought almost immediately "i've struck gold here", if the same quality of information is not quite as easily accessible then the new visitors may find less to keep them interested in WmW, less reason to subscribe and potentially worst of all there will be one less valued member of the community to put back in the kind of help they got out of it.

I would say imho that the best options are text adverts, or as bobking mentions, being "sponsored" by people wishing to market their services/tools via being reviewed.


 7:17 pm on Jun 17, 2001 (gmt 0)

For an example. I've had over 2,000 thousand clients over the last 5 years but I only have about 250 active clients today. All those clients have not cancelled because I didn't get them placed, like any good placement specialist, I've never failed to get my clients placed, but being number one and making money isn't the same thing and if a client doesn't generate enough income to justify the expense, they are going to cancel, stop paying, or go out of business, (or demand a refund because I didn't make them rich). I don't have the time to work with each client and train them on how to sell on a website for the money I charge. That just isn't the business model I have. I doubt that many people would want to pay what I would want to charge if I did make that my business model. I send clients traffic. That's what
I do for the fees we charge. Even at that, I don't think we charge enough. Anyway.

This leaves me with hundreds of active domains that are generating traffic to varying degrees that I often have to send to other paying clients which in effect means that I'm not getting paid for my "inventory".

Some of those keywords are pretty competitive stuff and the others are highly targeted and my guess is that if I don't have any clients willing to pay for some of that traffic, someone reading this does.

Well, I know all about those keyword brokering sites and if 2 or 3 cents a click is what I'm looking for fine, but I would like to find someone that could actually use those hits and would be willing to pay for them, but where would I go to find those people?

I'm so busy just keeping up with the clients I do have, that I don't have time to go out and try to hunt down interested parties for the stuff that is available and not being paid for, but I would sure add a site that would help me find those people to my bookmarks!

I would glady pay a commission or a monthly fee to whoever had a resource like I'm describing for access to a "market" that would be interested in auctioning, buying, selling or trading top placements.

Of course now that I've mentioned it there will probably be 5 sites up next week offering this type of service, BUT, few places would actually have the resources neccessary to pull this off.

My point is simply that this industry is just getting started and like any industry, there is a huge market for specific goods and services and yet it seems no one is going after that market. It just seems to me that the time is nigh and there are few places that are in a position to capitalize on this market.

It occurs to me that all that needs to happen is for someone to look beyond displaying banners and all the traditional web stuff that has brought us all to the point of even having to make this post about generating revenue, and think outside the banner and subscription box. That stuff has been done to death and no great success story of any of them leaps to mind. Maybe it's time to think outside the banner box.

There must be thousands of us throwing thousands of dollars a day at various promotional products and the engines themsleves. But it's like an army of blind people throwing money at a fan. That money is scattered in a thousand directions and in spite of the highly targeted market this industry represents, there is not really any one resource for the things that are getting money spent on them by this industry.

Sure, we all know where to go to pay Yahoo. We all know how to find a link to web position gold. But this industry changes almost daily and we all come here to find a link in a post to something we feel we need and off we go to spend our money somewhere else. My guess is even a small percentage of that money would add up to a significant amount fairly quickly. Yet, where is that site that offers some of those products and services in one place?

Were it not for the fact that between SK, portal hosting and magic-city, I have very little time left over, I would be doing it myself because I think it is a money-making hit going somewhere to happen, but even if I did, it would take me a long time to build up the kind of reputation and trust that a place like this has, (that's assuming of course, that I could ever even do it in the first place).

No biggee, it's just me spouting off and regardless of what action gets taken, I will be eternally grateful for what this place has offered to me. I just want what I want and am willing to try to "sell" the concepts to get what I want and what I want is a place to market some of the products and services I have been developing and I'm willing to pay for it. I'm just not willing to pay for anymore 2% click thru rate banners, buttons or top of an ezine ad for $5,000.

What I want is a site that supplies me as an internet marketer with a one-stop shopping solution as WELL AS a place to hang out and talk about what those solutions are and then go try to hunt it down, get it installed and try to figure out how to use it with what is jokingly referred to by most websites as support. I want to come here, learn about what I need, buy what I need and then be able to talk about it and how to use it without having to go to a dozen different sites and forums that I don't know and trust and sign up for another dozen e-zines. All from people who should be doing exactly what I'm suggesting.

Why isn't there a CJ for SEO's?


 7:40 pm on Jun 17, 2001 (gmt 0)

Welcome to WebmasterWorld jimbob.

>I don't think I stressed one point: this year, member posts and topics have been routinely cherry picked by sites, forums, articles, and newsletters. I'd guess on the order of 30-40 times it has happened this year (5 in the last week). Most of the time, that happens without accrediation or reference.

I'm very concerned about the effects of monetizing WebmasterWorld by going to some sort of subscription, but this content borrowing is the one point that keeps sticking me. We have been -bluntly- ripped off quite a bit, and much of it has occurred recently. Banners, text, sponsorships, etc. will not protect the good stuff.


 8:21 pm on Jun 17, 2001 (gmt 0)

>...I want to come here, learn about what I need, buy what I need and then be able to talk about it and how to use it without having to go to a dozen different sites and forums that I don't know and trust and sign up for another dozen e-zines. ...>

Right on Bob, I wholeheartedly agree.


 8:58 pm on Jun 18, 2001 (gmt 0)

Well I actually de-lurked to chime in on this one.

I've been coming here regularly for many months so I know how high the quality is here.

But, if this were all walled off behind some pay subscription scheme I would have no way of knowing how good this site is. How would you convince me that paying for a subscription is actually worth the cost?

Banners don't bother me. Malfunctioning banner ad servers really annoy me when they click me over to a 404.

There has to be another alternative.


 9:49 am on Jun 19, 2001 (gmt 0)

Hi Brad, welcome to the forums.

That is the critical thing in subscription sites from what I can deduce - making sure members understand the difference between the subscribers section and the public section. There obviously has to be a clear line in the sand.

Thanks for the thought Kinger. It is something I will consider.

Rc, thanks. We get cherry picked daily by other forums, authors and even search engines. It is one of the most compelling reasons to go subscription based.


 11:08 am on Jun 19, 2001 (gmt 0)

Before I start, let me acknowledge that I am freely nicking ideas from various posts here. I'm hoping to consolidate some of what has been said, and trying for a first approximation at defining a consensus. It seems to me there are actually several related problems here

1) "Content borrowing" - a thorny one, as the free exchange of information is part of the ethos of the Internet. However, I agree that it isnt fair to posters of good content, or the community as a whole for information to be ripped off and posted elsewhere in uncredited form.

The obvious solutions are a) hide the good content behind a subscription wall, b) See about the possibility of "getting tough" with those who steal content, up to and including legal action in an effort to get accredited for any info taken fron this forum, c) Consider encrypting content. New signups get one months free encryption, say, then some subscription fee applies perhaps? It wont stop determined content miners (they will simply pay up, and continue stealing) but it would stop casual theft, and would limit the number of people who COULD have done it (I know there are holes you could walk an elephant through in this idea, but maybe someone else knows how to make it work), d) Ignore it. Its a pain, but the cures might be worse

2) Attracting new members - Difficult one again. Most of the high security methods for protecting content conflict with this requirement, as restricted access to "good" content reduces the perceived value of this forum when someone first finds it.

I personally stumbled upon it by accident, looking for something completely different, but my eye was caught by the wealth of hugely useful info, and I can see this place becoming a habit. More of a habit.

However, for the long term health of WebmasterWorld, there MUST be a constant trickle of fresh blood (disturbing imagery, but you get the point). If you want to raise serious revenue from the site, it should also be obvious that you must constantly attract new users. This brings me neatly to

3) Revenue - As has already been identified, there are basically 2 methods of raising revenue :- advertising, and subscription. Here though, I'm going to steal an idea from bobking and add %age of sales. There is an obvious market for SEO tools and the like here, and I think it would be appropriate to tap it. I wont go too deep into specifics, but a here are a few ideas :

SEO tools :- consider making them shareware, with some or all of the registration fees and/or download fees going to WebmasterWorld. This would be difficult to apply retrospectively, but any new tools that were made available, or upgrades to old ones could be made available on a "pay to download" basis.
Product reviews of new commercial releases:- I'm sure that many software houses would pay a small sum to place a review their new releases here, where a highly targetted audience could read a comprehensive review from someone they really trust. Similarly, they may well agree to provide beta versions to members of this forum, and pay a commision on conversions to full release software (as well as getting some great beta testing in a "heavy duty" environment). Even if that isnt the right model, I'm sure there is a way of generating imcome from them.

Advertising and subscription both have their pros and cons, which I think are adequately covered elsewhere, but from what I've seen (and personal opinion), people would be more tolerant of advertising in some form, as it offers more of a choice (you dont HAVE to click a banner, or read a text ad), and a significant number of users object on principle to paying subscriptions, particularly for something that used to be free.

Any monies that can be raised from non-members reduces the amount that needs to be raised from members, existing or potential, and therefore reduces the impact of that fund-raising on WebmasterWorld. Ultimately, someone will dislike anything that is done. Some will refuse to pay subscriptions, some will stop visiting if advertising appears, but unless sufficient revenue can be generated externally, I think it is inevitable. The challenge is to miminise loss of user base, whilst maximising income

OK, now some analysis leading to conclusions.

From reading Bretts post, I see the objectives of this exercise as 1) Raising revenue 2) Protecting content and 3) Ensuring the long-term future of WebmasterWorld, not necessarily in that order.

I think it can be taken as given that to fulfill 1) and 3) there absolutely must be a constant stream of new members. Therefore, I would suggest that there must be at least some part of the site that is free to access. There must be sufficient high-quality content to attract new users to the forum, and to make it at least of some use to those who cant, or wont pay a subscription.

Sources of revenue from this section could perhaps include some moderate amount of discreet advertising (maximum cash for minimum disruption), downloads of various software tools (including, but not necessarily limited to SEO tools; users of this forum have other skills and interests), and/or a cut from registration of such software, fees from external software houses wishing to place reviews of their work, and fees from beta testing as outlined above.

Additionally, a subscription-based element could be added to the site, providing very high-quality, and time sensitive content, and possibly some content that will never make it to the public site. Some of the rest could then be made available after a period (a few weeks, a few months, as applicable) in the public section. This would add value to the subscription service, without detracting hugely from the public service.

Sources of revenue could include subscription fees, obviously, and I would suggest that higher fees could be charged for placing ads or reviews etc here, as it is even more highly focussed (likely to be serious players only in this section; please correct me if you think I'm wrong though).

Overall, I dont favour a subscription model particularly. I think enough people would be offended, or in the case of members from countries with an unfavourable exchange rate, would feel unable to pay, to damage the forum to some extent. A partial solution would be basing cost of access on, say, national average wage in the members country of operation (so US members would pay the same in "real terms" as someone in the UK, or Sweden, China, or anywhere. Could be open to abuse though)

However, I feel the "tutor forum" idea has much to recommend it. There are enough genuine experts here to make it worth using. Its an added-value service, everyone might use it at some point, so it wont be seen as an attempt to milk the newbies, and although you have the option of posting to the general fora, I would suggest you'll likely get a faster, more in-depth service if you're paying for it. The details would have to be carefully worked out so no-one will feel cheated, but I think it could be made to work (Discuss - 10 marks).

I think a moderate amount of advertising, carefully targetted, would be a good idea regardless of what else happens. Too much may drive people away, and if theres only a little, carefully selected to be relevant, that should increase peoples willingness to look at what there is (no click-through fatigue).

Content protection is awkward. A subscription model would provide limited protection, at the cost of accessibility, another partial solution would be a "no-lurkers" policy, requiring you to sign up to access anything, to help us identify and bar pinchers of content, but once again it reduces accessibility, and is almost worthless as a security measure as far as I can see (except in the case of a subscription model where it may have limited usefulness).

Overall I favour a mixture of ignoring most of it, but attempting to identify and ban/prosecute persistent offenders. Arrangements with the various boards where stolen content is posted may be possible, getting them to remove it and penalise the thieves. I cant really see a good solution that doesnt conflict with the need to attract new members.

An additional thought on revenue, it would be instructive to get a feel for the numbers involved, ie what is target revenue, at least roughly, how many members are there, how many willing to subscribe (and for how much? Difficult, as the answers will likely depend on whats offered), how much could be raised externally, (ads etc). It would be convenient if ad revenue and the like could be made to cover the whole sum. The forum could then continue to be free, and would likely continue to attract new members without losing any existing ones.

Conclusion (finally!)

I think the best solution is to introduce some advertising, charge a nominal sum for selected software services, introduce the "tutor forum" (at a nominal fee again) and squeeze as much as possible out of sotware companies for reviews etc as possible. I think fees to users need to be low, almost neglible in all cases, to encourage people to use them. Go for the "little added to little makes a great heap" approach. This would provide multiple revenue streams to WebmasterWorld, each producing a little income, but enough overall (I hope), reduce disruption to existing members, and not put off new ones. As to content protection, seek arrangements with the other boards, and seriously consider what action could be taken to identify and punish persistent offenders.

I feel these proposals would fulfil my earlier criteria, and play to the exising strengths of the forum.

OK, now feel free to tear everything apart, and tell everyone what I've missed, and what I've got wrong. I'm sure theres plenty, but this is at least a point of departure


 1:53 pm on Jun 19, 2001 (gmt 0)

Content borrowing: The worst repeat offenders must be gone after. Inadvertant violators are probably best dealt with with a caution. One thing to consider, at least people are paying attention to you. It's the leader of the pack that everybody tries to copy. Nothing worse than being ignored.

This may be more appropriate in a separate thread: Is there a way to turn this content borrowing into good publicity and exposure for WebmasterWorld?

TallTroll brings up a good point about the need for a constant infusion of new blood. IMO I don't think you'll get that with a subscription/membership model. But offering certain "at need" value added services might be very worthwhile.

SEO and webmastering tools: You know I used to read Jerry Pournelle's "Chaos Manor" column in Byte Magazine just to get recommendations on what software and hardware to buy. I trusted his recommendations because he told me what his experience was in getting everything installed and running. The problem remains the same: every box of software (or website) makes it sound like you have just found the eternal silver bullet. Is it really? Does it work? How hard it it to implement? Or is it snake-oil? How do yu use it? One eventually gets tired of having shelves (virtual or otherwise) full of software that did not meet ones expectations and now sits unused and gathering dust.

I'm not sure that even a subscription wall would protect the content -- information that is valuble seems to always leak out from password protected areas eventually and if miss-stated can sometimes do damage.

Finally, this revenue question is what half the information providers are asking right now. I'd love to come up with something innovative that I can eventually try for myself!


 2:12 pm on Jun 19, 2001 (gmt 0)

I agree that a lively discussion of this issue could probably benefit a lot of us!

Would it be remotely possible tp publish links to some of the more blatant examples of this content borrowing? Would help make it a little less abstract..

Or if someone wants to e-mail me some links?


 6:45 am on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

Howdy Jimbob, it would just be adding fuel to the already stoked fires. In their defense, there have been three forums in the last three weeks that have removed Wmw content from their sites (thank you).


 1:13 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

As one of the sinners.... IŽd like to link here now and then, but am not allowed in another forum that I participate in.

I would be happy to pay a subscription fee to feed Brett for hosting this excelent board.


 1:54 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

Heck, I woudn't want to stoke the fires, but could someone just clarify what types of usage are at the root of this? Is it a matter of lifting quotes without crediting the source, or are people misrepresenting it as their own work, or what?

Btw, after bouncing around between forums for over a year now, I finally decided to make WWM the default window for my browser. Nuff said.


 3:40 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

>>To kick around the idea of a subscription based model, I was thinking in these terms:

I love the subscription idea

Any chance of having a more advanced forum search option?

Such as having the ability to search for posts by username and keywords.

For example, if I searched for

user: Brett_Tabke
keywords: Revenue models

I would receive a list of results that would appear somewhat like

Brett_Tabke - 4 posts - Applying Revenue models to WebmasterWorld [webmasterworld.com]


 3:43 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

And the option to search a particular forum would be good.


 4:35 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

If you offer enough free information and keep some specific advanced information in the subscription area it should work easily enough. The tools idea is a good one also.

A lot of work goes into this place, either way I'm happy to help support Brett's valuable forums.


 5:12 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

one time: to search for posts by any person, use

xu:exact membername



I've not discussed it since it has the potential for abuse.


 4:09 am on Jun 22, 2001 (gmt 0)

Henki, those don't bother me to bad. The ones that get me, are the topic raiders. They lurk for something good to copy over to other forums to take credit for finding something good. Just start noticing when there is a hot news story who has it first. There are few sites on the net who have more news hounds that we do - it is unlikely that any site will beat us to the punch - so, they all read here. I've thought about putting a 1 to 24 hour grace period on new posts where only members could see them.

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