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Time for DMOZ to change
Googles reputation hangs in the balance.
RichTC

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 12:00 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

This post is why its time for the current situation with DMOZ and its relationship with Google to seriously change for the future good of the internet and Googles reputation.

1. itís a known factor that back links help a sites position in Google and a listing in DMOZ is a back link.
2. DMOZ feeds thousands of clone directory sites with its data hence a link in DMOZ means thousands of back links get created to your site.
3. A clone DMOZ directory is duplicate content anyway and surplus to requirements yet they feature on the net in their droves and frankly most of them need removing. DMOZ assists in getting more junk on the internet by feeding these useless directory sites with its data and at the same time they give more back links out to the sites featured. We only need one directory and thatís Yahoo as far as im concerned.
4. DMOZ has a percentage of corrupt editors out for their own cause, where you have big money keywords you get corruption. Google adwords are very expensive in some sectors, so assistance in moving up the Google serps for a website for certain keywords by having more anchor back links is an advantage and of significant financial value.
5. As Google is now a public company it should not be connected in anyway to any site that is possibly corrupt or has a percentage of corrupt staff. It should now break away from using DMOZ data.
6. DMOZ by its own submission cant cope with the editing job anyway and has thousands of categories that are out of date with dead links, incorrect descriptions not been updated and often a bias to the editors own or friends sites.
7. DMOZ is not in anyway regulated, it has no management structure as such that is publicly known and is not accountable in anyway for what it does.

Now as I see it because of the weight given to back links by Google an editor is in some cases indirectly getting a nice payoff as they can decide who they do or donít want in the category they edit. If a competitor comes to get listed they can simply ignore it, they can waffle around this factor as much as the editor likes but at the end of the day they decide.

Also, back links are highly valuable to a site especially in commercial areas. For a site to obtain as many ďOne WayĒ back links as DMOZ and its clones provide working without a DMOZ listing in its own right takes a long time and costs a site money as not all sites will give one way back links for free as DMOZ and its clones can.

As I see it, if you build a great site, you donít want some idiot copying it do you?, yet in the case of DMOZ they not only let you copy the data but they actively encourage it, why Ė back links of course!

Having now worked on various sites over the last five years and seen some get listed, some ignored, some taken out I have come to the conclusion that DMOZ has certain corrupt editors within it and that DMOZ can no longer cope with the size of the internet and the submissions as a result.

Google and DMOZ should now take the following action:-

1. Google should delete Page Rank on DMOZ all together, just grey bar it out on every page so that sites are not getting unfair page ranked back links
2. All clone DMOZ or related clone directory sites should be removed by Google from its index on the basis that they are duplicate content.
3. DMOZ should adopt a policy of no follow code on sites listed and insist that no other site should copy its data.
4. DMOZ should deal with all listing requests in order of when they were submitted. I.e. a site submitted on the 1st Jan 2004 should be looked at before a site submitted on the 1st Jan 2005.
5. If an editor finds a site not listed they think should be, it should be added to the same list to be reviewed in date order after the first one has been dealt with.
6. If the editor is turning a site down it should give reasons, not keep webmasters dangling and advise what the webmaster should do to improve their site in order to get listed.
7. DMOZ should be regulated and have a proper management line structure and the public should know who they are. They should be properly named and be fully accountable for their actions.
8. All data in DMOZ including editorís notes should be made wide open to the general public. Under the data protection act individuals have a right to know exactly what data and notes are made about them by companies. DMOZ clearly is in breach of the data protection act by being able to secretly write notes about sites which it keeps from the public view.

If DMOZ wants to gain any credibility it should adopt the above measures.

Meanwhile, if Google as a public company continues to use the DMOZ data and does not take action imo to clean up this relationship and the way it uses the DMOZ data, it will be a short matter of time until some serious corrupt allegations come to the surface which may ultimately damage Googleís reputation and its stock market value.

Its Time to act now...

 

Atticus



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 8:02 pm on Dec 19, 2005 (gmt 0)

"On a daily basis" DMOZ defenders post messages in this forum saying that no corruption exists in the ODP.

rfontaine

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 8:21 pm on Dec 19, 2005 (gmt 0)

Lets face it: DMOZ is corrupt. Many editors are using it for SEO of their own sites.

flicker

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 8:49 pm on Dec 19, 2005 (gmt 0)

>"On a daily basis" DMOZ defenders post messages in
>this forum saying that no corruption exists in the ODP.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that. Why would we have a mechanism for reporting bad or self-interested editing if we didn't believe it existed in the first place?

There are bad eggs everywhere. It's not true that we're not doing anything to prevent spam or biased entries at the ODP, though. If we weren't, there'd be a LOT more of it.

RailMan

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 8:56 pm on Dec 19, 2005 (gmt 0)

However, this part: "i often move submissions from competitors to other (wrong and unedited) categories," makes me wonder if railman has ever actually edited in the ODP at all. If an editor moves a submission to a category with no named editor, it automatically appears in the inbox of an editor higher up that tree.

you're almost implying that "therefore it will be edited immediately and put back where it belongs and corrupt editors will be caught out" which is just plain wrong

if i move a listing to a cat without an editor, it's unlikely to get edited for a long long time, if ever .......... that's just the way it is

RichTC

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 11:23 pm on Dec 19, 2005 (gmt 0)

and railman like other dmoz editors can play the DMOZ game to their own advantage.

And who can blame them? we are all in business to make money. If you can get any advantage over a competitor you are going to take it.

Where you have human involvement and big money keywords you are going to get corruption.

Meanwhile, to simply imply that a volume of backlinks wont help a site is plain stupid.

The fact is that all things being equal, two sites with a well structured business, both with similar page layout one with a dmoz and clone backlinks and the other without it doesnt take einstein to work out which site will rank higher in the natural google serps!

Give us a break!

Atticus



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 3:27 am on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

flick,

You gotta be kidding. You've never seen any one of the numerous threads that starts with an accusation that a corrupt DMOZ editor has somehow mistreated the poster and his website followed by an avalanche of posts by the DMOZ Defender Squad eviserating said poster?

It's a Black v. White, Up v. Down kind of free-for-all that happens here time and again. And it goes a little like this:

"You are corrupt!"

"We are not corrupt! You're corrupt!"

You can put the blame on one side, the other or both, but to say that you have never heard anyone say that there is no corruption in the ODP is incomprehensible considering the frequency with which it happens.

I can only conclude that you have been corrupted.

cbpayne

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 4:31 am on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

You've never seen any one of the numerous threads that starts with an accusation that a corrupt DMOZ editor has somehow mistreated the poster and his website followed by an avalanche of posts by the DMOZ Defender Squad eviserating said poster?
Yes and we just had one here in which someone bashed DMOZ corrpution becasue a corrupt DMOZ editor is a competitor, and has removed his site. Several DMOZ editors pointed out that his site was actually orginally added by that competitor and was subsequently removed by a another senior editor unrelated to that industry for legitimate reasons (ie several editors who checked all agreed with the removal.

The facts were the opposite of the vitriol being spat ... I did notice that the original poster has not returned to apoligise for the lie he made up.

I am happy to check any facts you beleive about DMOZ corruption. Every allegation that I have the ability to look at (I am not a senior editor so have limited access), I agreed totally with the action taken by the editor. So perhaps you can give us some facts to go and check that you base your allegation on?

Atticus



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 5:22 am on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

pain,

Are you mad? My "allegation" is that this forum is full of vitriolic, polarized arguments about the presence of corruption (or lack of it) in the ODP.

Do you really contend that the creed of the inviolability of the Open Directory Pontificate has never been raised in this forum?

Maybe you should re-read the Letters of St. Hutcheson to the Webians, in which he discusses some of the DMOZ Myteries of Faith such as:

"At this point the people who are flogging the solution haven't pointed to any actual data even suggesting any problem." (Translation: There is no corruption in the DMOZ)

You are free to worship any web directory you want to. But to suggest that nobody has ever claimed that the DMOZ is squeeky clean and pure as mother's milk defies the common experience of those of us who read this forum specifically to get a laugh out of the thunderous dust-ups regarding DMOZ corruption.

podman

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 5:42 am on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>>>if i move a listing to a cat without an editor, it's unlikely to get edited for a long long time, if ever .<<<<

(Sigh) This shows that Railman is either not an editor or very incompetant. Because that's a bunch of nonsense.

(For clarification, this does not prove that there are no corrupt editors, just that any corrupt editor who is good at it is unlikley to be posting in public forums)

Atticus



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 6:02 am on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

podman,

I understand that even cats without listed editors can be edited by those with permission to edit cats higher in the directory structure.

However, your assertion that Railman's statement about some sites not getting reviewed for a long time is "a bunch of nonsense," makes it sound like there is no backlog whatsoever in the DMOZ.

Are you really telling us that all sites are reviewed very quickly? That there are not tens of thousands of sites which have been in the queue for months or years?

Come on, who is lying now?

podman

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 6:43 am on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

There is plenty of backlog, in some places, thousands and thousands of submitted sites remain unreviewed. But we are talking about an editor moving sites - that's not the same thing.

Meta editors constantly fish around for activity, and they would see someone moving sites, and if they were consistently moved to incorrect categories, that's a giveaway.

I unreviewed a site once, because the site owner was hassling me with repeated update requests. I was going to ask someone what to do with the site, but forgot. In less that 24 hours, a meta had republished the site and I got a warning about what I had done.

I've caught editors unreviewing sites, and leaving notes that made no sense. A little investigation and an abuse report and bye, bye.

I've also seen editors deleting sites without good reason. If I don't see an obvious proof of abuse, it's a simple thing to resubmit the site from the outside without showing I'm an editor, and see what happens next.

Atticus



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 7:20 am on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

Oh, I see. The meta editors have complete control over everything -- not a sparrow falls that escapes thier notice.

But they still can't manage to clear that backlog of a million unreviewed sites.

Just another one of the Mysteries of the Faith, I guess.

Praise be to Mozzie.

podman

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 2:23 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

Thanks - we all feel better for your blessings.

hutcheson

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 5:08 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

>"At this point the people who are flogging the solution haven't pointed to any actual data even suggesting any problem." (Translation: There is no corruption in the DMOZ)

Atticus, you would do well to learn English before you attempt to translate it.

As flicker noted, and as other editors including myself have repeatedly told you, the existance of multiple ways of reporting abuse is proof that we think it extremely likely that there is corruption we haven't found yet.

So: that's the ODP attitude, and that's an end of the subject. Now, do you want to see proof that when we find corruption, we get rid of it?

Find some. Just find some. You can't. You don't know of any, and you can't find any, and you've shown no evidence that you'd recognize it if you tripped over it. That doesn't mean there isn't any. It just means you don't know anything at all.

And that's the CORRECT translation. YOU haven't contributed any actual information. You're just repeating, over and over, accusations for which you have no evidence. There are words for people like that.

Now, if you actually had any evidence of corruption -- if you could show any action ever taken that was detrimental to the directory but beneficial to the editor, then ... you'd at least have a way of seeing whether the ODP as a whole was corrupt -- you could report that evidence and see what happened.

As it is, you have mentioned no evidence of any specific corrupt acts, so you can't be in a position of knowing what the ODP as a whole thinks of corruption (if in fact there is any, which is something YOU don't know.)

That doesn't keep you from speaking as if you were omniscient. But if you speak with such confidence on a matter on which you have no knowledge whatsoever, ... what does that say about your credibility.

hutcheson

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 5:22 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

If someone can show evidence of a persistent and serious problem, then there would be a way for DMOZ to consider changes to address the problem.

Such things have happened before! One non-editor singlehandedly forced the ODP to change its editors' guidelines by repeatedly pointing out a specific kind of abuse that was slipping into the system. It took weeks of doing ODP searches and e-mailing the spam he found to an editor -- and he was finding a dozen or so a week at the time. Then it took a few months for the community to analyze the root problem -- of course we wouldn't take the facile approach "all submitters are abusers so let's make some silly rules to punish the honest ones." And then we had to reach consensus on the proper solution.

And the directory is much better for it. Nobody knows that philanthropist -- I don't know that he ever posted in a public forum. He doesn't have an editor name. But he changed the ODP.

Anyone can do the same thing. All you have to do is find enough examples of a problem to show a pattern. Tell us about it. And do it often enough to show the problem is recurrent.

hutcheson

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 5:26 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

>I've also seen editors deleting sites without good reason. If I don't see an obvious proof of abuse, it's a simple thing to resubmit the site from the outside without showing I'm an editor, and see what happens next.

So it is. And certainly, some corruption does get caught that way. And some corruption gets caught through the public abuse reporting system. And some gets caught by roving metas. And ... would we LOVE to have another good way of catching corruption? Absolutely!

Find some corruption. Show us how you did it. And chances are, you'd be surprised to see how much we did with your technique.

RichTC

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 5:59 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

hutchey

Knickers and twist come to mind here! - three posts on the trot.

Find some corruption. Show us how you did it. And chances are, you'd be surprised to see how much we did with your technique.

This is the problem, an editor using three editor names isnt going to tell you how hes working. With all the backlinks hes happy with the way it is - why should he tell you?

1. Cut the backlink advantage and eliminate corruption - simple!

2. Make editors use their names and prove who they are rather than nick names and you eliminate duel editors.

3. Have an established accountable management tree and you eliminate, name and shame dodgy editors that hide from the public view.

4. Bring all secret notes into the open so webmasters can see exactly what is being said about them (as per the data protection act)and have the right to defend themselves if required and be able to prove the corruption involved.

The list is endless.

Alternatively, keep things the way they are until a corruption case is filed against you and google and DMOZ gets taken off line overnight!

Atticus



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 6:00 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hutch,

Do you look like Castro as well as speak like him?

Sorry, but I fell asleep half way through your diatribe.

hutcheson

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 6:34 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

Atticus, I think you'll find it's Rich spewing out rules like Uncle Joe Stalin in a bad mood, and trying to set up a dictatorship over an anarchist commune.

Rich, if you can't even show there's a problem, then you obviously aren't the right person to be giving advice. First FIND YOUR PROBLEM, then try to fix it.

I do, however, recommend your diatribe to me about real names -- to all readers with a taste for low irony. But -- while you're solving the world's problems, why don't you tell PayPal the same thing? THEY don't give out real names either! (Corruption is rife! Man the barricades!)

helleborine

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 6:39 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

It is possible to have your editor privileges removed for gently pointing out policy decisions made by META editors that reek of corruption, in the ODP editor forum.

This without using the word "corruption" or making any remotely controversial post - the mere fact that you appear to know that something is not quite kosher, will get you booted out of the ODP.

If you know something doesn't look right with the actions and decision of some METAs, keep silent, if you value your editing privileges.

hutcheson

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 6:56 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

If you think there is an issue with a meta-editor, then you should take it up with an administrator -- they are the ones who choose and review the metas. Even "gently" accusatory posts in the general editor forums are generally inappropriate.

Atticus



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 7:58 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hutch,

You said, "Even "gently" accusatory posts in the general editor forums are generally inappropriate."

You posted this statement within half an hour of denying that you and Fidel Castro had, in fact, been separated at birth.

All I can say is, "Have a cigar..."

hutcheson

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 8:38 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

Atticus, it was an oversight.

iblaine

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 8:44 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

A month ago I was offered $2k for an editor account on DMOZ. DMOZ is very corrupt and flawed.

helleborine

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 9:18 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

Even "gently" accusatory posts in the general editor forums are generally inappropriate.

No one was accused, no name was given, not even in private.

All I said is, the mere fact that a lowly editor may have accidentally come across something "not quite right" may have him booted off if a META realizes that this lowly editor might unwittingly exposing something more sinister.

I do happen to know that it is quite possible for mediation request to be made, a mediator found, then the request dutifully ignored until hell freezes over (at least 9 months that I am aware of), despite the occasional polite reminder. It seems like some METAs are exempt from being subjected to mediation.

Take up the issue with the META with Management?

I laugh, I laugh.

Who is Management, but a bunch of fellow METAs?

There is no Management, since the fellow that revoked kctipton's status as a META left the ship (I forget his name, sorry).

Stefan

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2610 posted 9:40 pm on Dec 20, 2005 (gmt 0)

You posted this statement within half an hour of denying that you and Fidel Castro had, in fact, been separated at birth.

With all due respect, it would be best if you keep politics out of the discussion. After all, I haven't seen anyone mention the leader of what I assume to be your country, and he could be used equally well as a negative comparison in many topics on WW.

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