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Does it pass PR?
I have just checked Google backlinks of maney sites listed in Bluefind and was not able to find one site showing a backlink from Bluefind! Does anyone know if Bluefind works and if a listing there would improve PR.
Their main page for an strange reason had a PR0 for a few weeks, but now it's back ti PR8.
>>>I'm a little disappointed in the flaming going on here.
pageoneresults has been polite, factual, and gentlemanly. dvduval, can you please point to the exact post where he flamed anyone? If you are unable to do that then you should reconsider your statement.
Folks, it's ok to have a discussion as long as you follow pageoneresults' lead in keeping to the facts, and keeping your emotions out of it.
Some friendly constructive advice
My opinion is that there needs to be some work done to get joe surfer in there using it as a resource. It's time to reconsider the Directory, especially who the constituent for that directory is. Is it the webmaster who is paying to get in? Or is the constituent the user who is using it to find useful websites?
Today you rarely see directories in the serps, except for local search terms like Your City + Generic Service. There used to be more directories (as well as Site Maps) in the serps but that changed sometime last year. What this means is that if you build a directory in the traditional manner like DMOZ (whose cats DO show up in the serps), then you have to rethink the architecture, as well as other features of the directory.
I advised a colleague on that point last year and his directory is doing very well with one way inbound links from all over the internet. Why so many links? Because he built it to be a helpful resource and other webmasters agreed with him. Not one link is paid for, his directory has a PR 7, his traffic is doing well, the directory ranks very well for competitive phrases across a wide range of topics, and I receive traffic from his directory.
BlueFind and SEO
I think that's part of where BlueFind is lacking. Not enough categories showing in the serps. Supposedly the people behind BF know something about SEO, so they should put some of that thinking into play so that BF shows up in the serps.
If you optimize the directory to show up in the serps, then the traffic will come and people will find value in BlueFind.
There are other directories that rank exceptionally well in the serps. It's no accident. The reason they do so well is because there's an SEO behind those directories.
So what Bluefind may need to do is hire a competent SEO to rethink the directory and put a plan of action in place to help it rank well.
But you know, you can't make all of the people happy and with a high profile website I guess that comes with the territory. Just look at the heat a great directory like DMOZ takes.
[edited by: martinibuster at 2:56 am (utc) on Dec. 26, 2004]
|pageoneresults has been polite, factual, and gentlemanly. dvduval, can you please point to the exact post where he flamed anyone? If you are unable to do that then you should reconsider your statement. |
You (all) do a great job here, so I certainly defer to your expertise in running this forum.
|Today you rarely see directories in the serps, except for local search terms like Your City + Generic Service. |
I think there is too much empasis on Google. I have lots of links from directories appearing on Yahoo and MSN. I run a directory myself, and I have no shortage of traffic. As of a matter of fact, it has gone nowhere but North. ;)
>>John, I didn't even want to go there. The last thing I wanted to do is for you to have a mass refund request from those who experienced the same thing I did. Remember, you brought that one up, not I. So, if you spend the rest of the holidays processing refund requests, it was not my doing! ;) <<
Edward, you don't need to worry about that. I refund one or two listings per month, and almost never at the request of the submitter. It's usually because the dimwitted submitter irrationally expects thousands of hits from the directory. Rather than explain the benefits of a directory listing, it's much easier to simply hit the refund button, like I did in your case.
And what "problems" have I caused with my lack of diplomacy? Neither my bank nor my CPA are aware of any problems.
>>I think that's part of where BlueFind is lacking. Not enough categories showing in the serps. Supposedly the people behind BF know something about SEO, so they should put some of that thinking into play so that BF shows up in the serps.<<
Martinbuster, I appreciate the comments, but we are not going to SEO BlueFind. We deal with enough criticism just for buying ads across hundreds of sites; if we SEO'ed the directory the forum-posting types would declare us to be the Devil Incarnate.
|It's usually because the dimwitted submitter irrationally expects thousands of hits from the directory. |
That one statement above, probably represents a good portion of your submissions. That should make those thinking of submitting feel real good, don't you think?
From a professional standpoint, if I were your Marketing Advisor, I'd have to suggest that you refrain from posting at the public level about your directory.
|Rather than explain the benefits of a directory listing, it's much easier to simply hit the refund button, like I did in your case. |
Hmmm, I'll take it I fall within that dimwitted submitter category. I would have thought with the amount and depth of advertising that you've done to date that my sponsored listing would have generated more than one referrer in 30 days.
|Martinbuster, I appreciate the comments, but we are not going to SEO BlueFind. |
<title>Keyword Phrase 1 - Keyword Phrase 1</title>
When I first saw all of those indexed pages with the same keyword phrase back to back in the title, I thought, now who in their right mind would do something like that? Are you sure that wasn't an attempt at SEO? ;)
|And what "problems" have I caused with my lack of diplomacy? Neither my bank nor my CPA are aware of any problems. |
Maybe not. But, it appears that those who have paid to be listed are aware of some problems. And, touting the money thing is something I would have also advised against. Rubbing something like that in the public's face leaves a really bad taste in the mouth.
Rumor has it that BlueFind may have been sold and that you've remained on board to help manage it. I think a plea to the new owners is in order to maybe hire someone with a marketing background to do some damage control.
|Rumor has it that BlueFind may have been sold and that you've remained on board to help manage it. |
That's no rumor.
I bought a link at bluefind, haven't had a single referal that made a difference and the page that I'm on is grey barred too, with no cache, despite being a top level cat.
Still, I dont care its no big deal and I should of known better really, but I'm human and like most other people in this game, will test and prod and see what happens.
I think some directory owners are far too promotional, and need to rethink their bragging rights. Its a delicate line to tread, I accept that, but for many of the dir's out there they may as well shout "Buy anchor text here, exploit an algo or two" I certainly wouldn't want well known self promotionists extolling my virtues as in my view such things need sensitive handling and to do well should stay as far below the radar as possible, or be in such a position of outstanding usefulness that they stand on their own merits.
For the Dir owners, I guess its a tough one really. They want submitters as submitters equals revenue. Most submitters are looking towards the pagerank value that may accrue as a result. Any traffic that converts from these things would be very surprising, especially in the playgrounds that I dabble. This might not be the case where there was some other real world marketing campaign occuring, newspapers, radio, tv, search engines etc ;), but in most of these cases lets be frank this simply isn't going to happen. All we get is the same ol same ol links and banners appear on the usual suspect domains advertising their wares to the seo community that thinks it might gain an edge or 2. Whats the point in showing your knife edge to a knife grinder you are unwilling to pay? If you aren't paying him, he's very likely to blunt it.
Im not knocking all directories, some offer real value to the user, adding unique useful content. To me a good dir shouldn't just be about URI's and descriptions, a good resource, or one thats trying at least will go a whole lot further than that, but then, that would be hard work I guess, which doesn't exactly fit in with the build it cheap, fill it up quick earn a fast buck mentality, which is perfectly ok, so long as thats what it is being sold as. A pretence at anything else is where the problems start.
I haven't seen anything happen with bluefind that is any different from the squillions of other dir scripts that proliferate the searchscape. Some do it better than others thats all.
Only Google really knows the score with bluefind. Maybe it will recover, maybe it won't. Whatever happens its a useful learning curve.
Ouch! Feels good to be valued.
>>Rather than explain the benefits of a directory listing
You're not providing PR (or give the impression that it's the submitters' fault if they expect a PR benefit). You're not providing traffic. Am I missing something or are there other benefits to a directory listing?
>>Neither my bank nor my CPA are aware of any problems
Ah, so money is the only thing that matters? Seems to contradict other posts you've made.
I do a lot of things that you do. I'm fussy about whom I do business with and I've often refused to take an order when I thought someone was a troublemaker. I'm the only one in the UK who can supply a certain widget and it p*sses the hell out of people when I refuse to do business with them. It's great to be in this position of running a business to my whim and fancy. But I don't insult customers; it's not professional, and I certainly don't do it in public. I think there's merit in the suggestion about letting a PR company handle responses to threads like these ;)
See message #16.
Yeah I felt that way too...
I'm pleased to say we don't have any of those with our directory, everyone receive an email thanking them for the submission and a further email informing them that its been added to the directory, but that's all part of our customer service...
*Im not knocking all directories..*
In that case, allow me ;-)
Apart from Y! and DMOZ, I have yet to see a non-niche/local directory worth a flying ****!
To be fair he didn't call everyone dimwitted - just the ones who have irrational expectations. The problem is that if I'm not getting PR I'd expect traffic. And that seems to be an irrational expectation.
I am suprised at the way this thread has gone , I have submitted 18 sites to bluefind in the last 12 months and will not do so any more but that is a business decision
I have not recieved visitors and gained no Link gains PR etc. , i would not complain or ask for money back i just will not be spending with BF of associates again , in all fairness to them they are webmasters like the rest of us and we all fall foul of big G occasionally and what i find suprising is that when other directories which not as highly promoted have not provided ROI we just got on with it and no longer spend money with
Nearly all the big directories that webmasters use or have used have and will change ( goguides / skaffe DMOZ etc etc as webmasters we should move on some we lose some we gain
I submitted about 50 urls into Bluefind when it first came out. Why? Cause it was an on-topic backlink and it was ran by John, who I had knew was not a bad person. Of course no one will get traffic from it. Now, ask again in 3 years if you get traffic, and I'll bet ya money that the traffic clickthroughs are much higher. It's still only like 6 months old or something. Do I regret spending thousands of dollars on it? No. There are other engines besides Google, 1st of all. And second, cause I believe that whether it has cached pages now or not, it will be resolved in time.
It seems everyone here is comparing it to the Y! directory, but no one really realizes that Y! is $300/yr, and Bluefind is $50 forever. It's not fair to compare the two. That's like asking why your Kia Spectra doesn't get as many compliments as your neighbors Mercedes Benz.
Anyway, for those who submitted for PageRank reasons, I think you should be looking into getting relevant links regardless of what your green bar shows, but what do I know.
Shawn, let me ask a question that is related to all of this. What purpose does a directory serve if most of what it is feeding the search engines are empty categories full of advertisements? I can point out a few directories that are taking major hits right now for just this reason. Having 500,000+ pages indexed in Google most with empty categories just doesn't sit right with quality engineers.
>>>That one statement above, probably represents a good portion of your submissions. That should make those thinking of submitting feel real good, don't you think?
From a professional standpoint, if I were your Marketing Advisor, I'd have to suggest that you refrain from posting at the public level about your directory. <<<
Edward, you are pretty much the only submitter I'm aware of who expected traffic from BlueFind. Most professionals I've spoken to expect nothing more than a link, a permanent listing in the directory.
I also doubt that many people care to get hysterical about the week-to-week status of BlueFind in Google.
The directory is one of the few directories that is highly promoted. I'm not aware of another web directory that spends $50,000+ annually and offers permanent listings for under $50.
As for my bluntness - I suppose I could be more polite to a person that freeloaded and complained about it, but in your case I was aware of things you'd been saying about me around the time that you removed my forum from seoconsultants.com, and it was a no-brainer that you were just submitting so you could complain about lack of traffic here later on. I said it to my partners when you submitted, and it took little over a month for my prediction to come true. So, ya, you annoy me. My apologies for allowing your cheap shots to annoy me, but that's the person I am and that's the person I'll remain to be.
As for BlueFind, it does fine. I am not going to worry about the day-to-day status of BlueFind in Google. It is a long term business venture, and the value we strive to provide to webmasters is not delivered or deminished by the day-to-day status of BlueFind in Google, or any other search engine.
>What purpose does a directory serve if most of what it is >feeding the search engines are empty categories full of >advertisements?
Well, if they are soon to be populated then I guess they will serve a purpose soon enough. But if they are not going to be populated and are used just for adsense, searchfeed or inflating the number of indexed pages, I'd say it's pretty useless.
Errr well look folks if you type "BlueFind" into Google it just ain't there, despite the Google Toolbar displaying PR8. I fed the URL into a couple of PageRank predictors which came up with the rather suprising prediction that the PR at next update would be 10.
Well, look, clearly BF is on Google's radar because anything in PR9+ territory probably gets a manual review, and the evidence from the SERPs looks very much like a PR0 penalty from my experience, even though PR is showing.
In other words, the site doesn't show in the SERPs as you'd expect, ergo Google has done something to supress BF's results. I'd be darned sure it wasn't passing PageRank because it doesn't behave as it if really has any to begin with. Odd, I know.
(I also checked the very long robots.txt at BF and it excludes almost everything you can think of except the Googlebot, which is kinda odd.)
Your right looks like bluefind is toast in G and sevenseek as well
suppose they did make it fly very high above the radar
and some say G do not apply manual penalties
Neither BlueFind nor SevenSeek are "toast". And flying above radar? Well, if you mean that Google is aware of the directories, yes they are. I've exchanged several emails with them recently and they were kind enough to fix an issue with BlueFind. You people sure do seem oddly paranoid.
Dynamoo, treat those PR predictions for the rubbish that they are. PR prediction is, like astrology, only there for amusement.
|PR at next update would be 10 |
That should have served as a clue ;)
The conclusions you draw are therefore flawed.
Mosley700, I notice you didn't address the issue I raised earlier of what I'm likely to gain if it wasn't PR or traffic. I take it then you are relying on people submitting aware that they won't get traffic and that they may get PR (for whatever that PR is worth)? i.e. PR selling without making a claim that you're selling PR. Because you have no way of ensuring delivery of that PR the most you can do is hope people will have the expectation without you actually giving them a promise.
I was half thinking of submitting. I'm having second thoughts now even though it's "throwaway" money. But, I'm sure my half a dozen sites won't make a big difference to your CPA's figures ;)
I'm sorry I missed that question. No directory, IMO, sells PR. I doubt that any single link from any web directory will increase a website's PR.
We offer listings. In the big scheme of things, a single web directory listing isn't going to do anything. However, I believe that many, many directory listings and links from many, many unique websites and IP ranges will assist in search engine placement in most search engines.
Someday, it would be nice if we could gain the amount of traffic that webmasters submit to the directory for the traffic, but that's not something that I see happening in the near future.
Fair enough argument. Thanks for your reply. To me that suggests that small sites with a marketing budget of just a few hundred dollars may not be well served by a listing in BF as the benefit comes from the volume of such listings rather than each individual one. I may be wrong.
>>I'm not aware of another web directory that spends $50,000+ annually and offers permanent listings for under $50
There was one that gave you a listing for free (in exchange for a reciprocal). The directory is a dot biz called URL. They played a game of buying PR till they accumulated a lot of reciprocals (who wouldn't exchange links with a PR8?). They then dropped buying PR when they had enough reciprocals. So their home page now shows a PR1 but their internal pages have healthy PR on the back of the reciprocals. As you don't ask for reciprocals this, of course, has no bearing on BF and is perhaps more the kind of directory that people should be cautious about.
>>To me that suggests that small sites with a marketing budget of just a few hundred dollars may not be well served by a listing in BF as the benefit comes from the volume of such listings rather than each individual one. I may be wrong.<<
I've actually said that a few times, and agree entirely. If money is tight, or even a concern, BlueFind need not be a high priority.
I dropped about $1,000 bucks on BlueFind, SevenSeek and Uncoverthenet, but I'm not planning on doint it anymore.
The confrontational attitudes of these guys is laughable. When your customers express a concern, if you're a professional business person, you handle their concern quickly and quietly, to their satisfaction. Constantly ignoring every discussion shows bad form.
Honestly, I'd call the whole business model of these directories "moronic", a phrase I'm sure John Scott would appreciate. Customizing an actual solution would have been better. For people "who wrote the book on SEO", I consider their application laughably simplistic.
I've never seen people so content about so little achievement. You bought "some links", installed a script, and spammed some webmaster forums. And for this you expect the unconditional love of the public? It's not enough.
Shawn actually spends a lot of time posting about his "accomplishment" of buying links and installing a script and how many pages Google has indexed. Um Shawn, calm down their fella. Unless you just started in the business lately, you know that there's a romance period when Google eats a lot of pages. When GoogleBot realizes its all empty crap category pages, they'll do the only thing they can do and start dumping pages just as fast. Will you post each day to forums the news about how many less pages you have? I think you won't.
My suggestion is for all of you to come back down to Earth. You've had some very minor league success with these directories. They are minor based on every criteria of judging accomplishments. The sites I mentioned are mediocre in design, marketing, and especially in execution. They have also had their Golden Era. There's one big problem with buying links to get PR and then selling links for a "one-time lifetime" fee. If you had actual business experience, and a long term business model, you'd realize that at some point the link submissions are going way down and your advertising costs will be level. That sounds like a plan for diminished profits. Add to that the fact that people in the community you've targeted are starting to really not like you, and you're looking at a decline coming much quicker.
[edited by: skibum at 5:20 pm (utc) on Dec. 31, 2004]
[edit reason] toned down just a little [/edit]
What's with the personal attacks here?
JuniorOptimizer, as far as I can tell, you have no right to lecture anyone on professionalism.
|You bought "some links", installed a script, and sp*mmed some webmaster forums. |
I think you forgot a few things. They took a risk, spent a lot of money and probably put in a lot of hard work.
|They took a risk, spent a lot of money and probably put in a lot of hard work. |
yeah correct the same as everyone else, but most of us stay below the radar and don't post links to their own directory on every other forum.(or get someone else to post them)
No one is disputing the time and effort that they have spent on bluefind but it's in your face everywhere you go, if its that good why has it only got 42,000 pages listed, I have more than 4 times that amount but I don't ram it down any ones throat.
These guys are suppose to be the creme de la creme of seo/sem, what do they go and do install a complete copy of the same directory structure on anther domain name, where is the common sense in that, and then wonder why bluefind "looks" like it could have a penalty.
This is not aimed at flaming John and his merry men just stating facts
|yeah correct the same as everyone else, but most of us stay below the radar and don't post links to their own directory on every other forum.(or get someone else to post them) |
Well, I don't know anything about that.
Apparently this is some kind of ongoing soap opera that I haven't been following...thank God!
Soap opera, This has had more publicity than "Dallas" had on prime time TV in the 80's ;)
If you optimize the directory to show up in the serps, then the traffic will come and people will find value in BlueFind.
I totally agree with this. I have some clients with dozens of links from directories that all produce PR 0 because they are databases or some other problem not passing PR. It's gotten to the point that before I will submit to a directory now I check the PR of the page where it should appear and if it is in a database I move on unless I have experienced high traffic from that directory in the past. I have noticed lots of directories taking the effort to produce sites that pass PR and those are the ones that will prosper--unless PR becomes extinct.
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