| This 39 message thread spans 2 pages: 39 (  2 ) > > || |
|DMOZ Submission |
Something fishy going on.
| 1:49 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
This email is not intended to offend anyone, however something fishy is going on with DMOZ.
I have submitted an ecommerce site to the exact category it belongs in to DMOZ over a year ago.
I continued to check with the editor(s) over and over every few months. They have my submission but it never gets listed.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this website. It is not a porn or gambling site. It is a plain old fashion ecommerce website.
I decided to call a very reliable source and what he told me is that the editor who has this category probably has a financial interest in this particular category and he/she is not permitting new sites to this category.
That makes perfect sense to me. Why else wouldn't it get listed?
He then suggested I get in through a regional/local means just so I can get listed in the directory, then eventually they would have to place me in the category that this site should belong.
It is not fair that certain editors can control a category/submission as to who could and cannot get in.
Even though its all volunteer, it still sounds like an illegal thing to do.
Has anybody else experience this? Can somebody help?
| 1:58 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I could be wrong, but I think it's harder to get a commercial site listed because there are so many of them. You'll probably get a response from a dmoz editor since a lot of them post here.
| 2:17 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Reevaluate your personal definition of a "very reliable source."
The number one reason sites don't get listed is because they are crappy or otherwise don't meet the listing guidelines. The #2 reason is because no one, including you, has volunteered to edit that category.
| 4:12 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>I decided to call a very reliable source and what he told me is that the editor who has this category probably has a financial interest in this particular category and he/she is not permitting new sites to this category.
>That makes perfect sense to me. Why else wouldn't it get listed?
No single editor at the ODP has that power. The editors of any of the categories higher up the tree can also edit in that category. Along with a large number of editalls and metas who can edit in any category they want to. An alternate explanation for what is happening here that doesn't involve a massive conspiracy theory is that your submission is in a pile with many other unreviewed sites that no editor has got around to tackling. There are so many sites in unreviewed at the ODP (I believe over 1+ million) that it is not unusual for them to take over a year to get reviewed.
| 4:14 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|There are so many sites in unreviewed at the ODP (I believe over 1+ million) that it is not unusual for them to take over a year to get reviewed. |
That can't be a good thing.
| 4:24 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Trust me this site is not crappy. Received many compliments on it. Have many top ranking on all major search engines, but yet cannot get into DMOZ.
Maybe your right, commercial sites may take a bit longer, but over a year, come on, no way!
As for my "reliable source". I do not kiss and tell! But I will tell you this, he is one who has been in this type of business since the creation of the internet. When it comes to the internet, he is like God among men. I can assure you that.
This kind of political stuff happens all the time. It is just too bad that the little people like myself have to suffer for it.
I have friends who have submitted to DMOZ in other categories without editors and they were all listed in a couple of weeks to a month tops!
I have even volunteered to become editor myself of this category to help the cause, and was rejected.
I just give up. I tried everything. Just venting my frustrations that's all. No disrespect to anyone.
| 4:59 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>Trust me this site is not crappy. Received many compliments on it. Have many top ranking on all major search engines, but yet cannot get into DMOZ.
But it is logically possible that your site is in a large unreviewed queue with a huge number of "crappy" sites. If so, then the problem may be all the spammers ODP editors have to deal with are delaying your site getting reviewed. As for your rankings on search engines, read the ODP editing guidelines as to what is to be considered in evaluating a site.
>I have friends who have submitted to DMOZ in other categories without editors and they were all listed in a couple of weeks to a month tops!
Reread what I posted in #4 in this thread.
| 5:14 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>I have even volunteered to become editor myself of this category to help the cause, and was rejected.
Me too. The first 3 times rejected, they liked me on the fourth attempt. Odd because all the applications were the same?
It is true that editors see a lot of "crap" and spam. But they tend to be the same thing over and over again, and therefore don't really require that much time.....a bit like deleting spam email for male enhancement products....LOL;)
It is possible the editor who is reviewing your submission has a financial stake in that category.....there are bad apples in the cart.
Why don't you try emailing one of the Meta's?
However, I have to tell you that DMoz is not the powerhouse it once was. Today its influence is minimal and going down rapidly.
| 5:51 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I applied with a content site, with unique original content that was unlike any other site I had seen in the same category. That was in August 2003, I was just accepted a couple weeks ago.
I too kept in touch via the DMOZ forum on the status of my site and one of the editors was kind enough to tell me that there was a problem with my site that "may" be keeping it from being admitted.
My site didn't degrade well in Netscape 4. I designed for crossbrowser but didn't go back that far. I was told that a lot of DMOZ editors use older computers, and gecko browsers, because of the horrendous spam sites, with malicious code, that are submitted. Therefore, if your site design fails miserably and they can't read your content, you won't get accepted.
It took me a bit to redesign back to NN4, but within a few weeks of posting that I had done it, my site was accepted. Coincidence? Maybe ... but I am glad I did it.
Just a thought,
| 6:02 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>Maybe your right, commercial sites may take a bit longer, but over a year, come on, no way!
I would have thought commercial sites took 10-20 times longer. But that's not based on a vision from God -- merely on what I can remember of a few score thousand actual directory edits. And I wasn't flogging MLM fruit basket marketing schemes to Adam and Eve, but I do remember when the ODP passed the Lycos directory in size. And I'd respectfully submit that when reality clashes with revelation, it's time to start shopping for a new deity.
I'd suggest that you leave the ODP submittal where it is -- if users need the site, the ODP will eventually offer it to them. In the meantime, if you need site promotion services, find someone who offers them.
| 10:13 am on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
"Just venting my frustrations that's all"
Thank you then for wasting our time, and lets look forward to a quick thread deletion.
| 12:39 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
That's just it. I have checked with the editor(s) regarding my site. They say it looks fine and I just have to wait my turn. But to wait over a year?
Percentages when you say:
"Me too. The first 3 times rejected, they liked me on the fourth attempt. Odd because all the applications were the same?
It is true that editors see a lot of "crap" and spam. But they tend to be the same thing over and over again, and therefore don't really require that much time.....a bit like deleting spam email for male enhancement products....LOL;)"
Could not agree with you more! That's because the first three times you probably came across editors who looked at your submittal and had a financial interest in that category. Finally on the 4th try you had someone honest who let you in.
That's the problem with this. Its friends letting friends in. Its gotten out of control. The inmates are now running the asylum.
Not wasting everyone's time. There are many who read this tread who feel exactly like I do and are going through it as well.
While others who have more of an advantage tend to shoot this theory down.
Fact, when it comes to E-commerce, we live in a cynical world.
| 12:57 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Wow, I must have gotten lucky with DMOZ, they listed me after two weeks of my first submission.
| 1:05 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
my site - a student travel site - was submitted to ODP in the appropriate category 9 months ago, ive used a popular forum related to the ODP to track its status but its still pending review!
i was told that maybe i should try and become an editor for one of the lower levels and try to get my site in that way, kind of imoral but worth a shot - however getting editor status at ODP was a challenge in its self so im still a lowley 'user', still waiting!
9 months is quite some time!
fingers cr0ssed ;)
| 2:20 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
By the way, either your source wasn't as reliable as you thought or you've misunderstood him--submitting your site to a regional category isn't a backdoor way into the ODP. It's a second category for which your site may be appropriate. We list the websites of businesses with regional presences in *both* the category of the town you're located in, *and* the Business category it's appropriate for. Assuming its content qualifies, of course.
Processing free submissions is not the highest-priority job of ODP editors, so in categories that see a lot of submissions, it can indeed take a long time. I know it can be frustrating to submitters to wait several months to see their listing, but in reality, what this boils down to for you in SEO terms is a free non-reciprocal link from another site. Why give yourself stress over the fact that you're not getting this free link as quickly as you might like? You're not paying for it; you don't have to link back; you don't have to do any work. Just submit it and forget about it. *shrug*
| 5:25 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
A light should come on for some here!
-submitting your site to a regional category isn't a backdoor way into the ODP. It's a second category for which your site may be appropriate.
This is a second link from ODP, that might (in my case, WILL) pass a great deal more PR (when G Updates PR), than the Shopping Cat that I am still waiting on.
We have a brick and morter(literaly) location, so after I was told there was an extended wait for the submission to the Shopping Cat I submitted to, So I submitted to the local regional cat for the City/State we are located it. A few months later, a roving editor, found my site and listed it a third cat, I had not submitted to. Then about 3 weeks later, the editor for the City/State Cat I submitted it added my site my site to the regional city/state cat, and removed the listing fromt the 3 cat. There are only 3 other entries(really small town) where I will be splitting the PR 4 ways, in my City/State cat.
Eventually I expect my site to be added to the original shopping Cat that I submitted to, giving me a second link, but the link in the city/state regional cat will help my site more(passing pr)than the shopping entry.
If you site qualifies for admission to the ODP, a surfing editor might find it and enter it on their own.
Submit your site to both a regional(if you qualify), and the other majior cat it qualifies for. The regional cat may get reviewed sooner, or not, either way, it gives you two chances to get listed, and if both are correct, you might end up with two non-recrip links.
Venting does not help, it only shows how little you understand about the true value of the link(s) from the ODP.
Submit it and forget it, Not worth stressing over, been there, done that, and learned it is just not worth it. Spend your time improving your site, and picking up links from every other related site you can. You can pick up possibly hundreds of links faster that are worth a great deal more than the link(s)from the ODP.
I am NOT an editor.
I considered setting up a site selling cheese to go with the wine around here about the DMOZ
| 5:52 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|Thank you then for wasting our time |
I as many other people have had trouble getting listed in DMOZ(almost 2 years for me) - so to me and other people possibly in the same boat, it becomes interesting to hear of good or back luck getting listed and not a waste of my time.
In fact I never thought of submitting to the regional cat - so I was able to get a good idea from the post. Sorry you didn't find it as useful.
There are lots of posts to be read around here - some you will enjoy, some you won't.
| 6:44 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
To add to the comment about browser compatibility, another thing that can keep a valid site waiting in ODP unreviewed queues for a long time is being flash-only. Many editors (including myself) don't have flash installed for various security reasons, and there are sites that were submitted a year and a half ago still sitting around in the unreviewed queue of one of my categories, untouched.
Since I also don't use flash-only websites for shopping purposes, adding a non-flash section of your website would help you reach some additional customers, too; probably more useful to you in the long run than the ODP listing, so it's a doubly useful suggestion. (-:
| 6:48 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Right On KevinC
My thoughts exactly. This is my point. For those of you who got in or have something to do with DMOZ, find it irritating hearing from the many frustrated people who have sumitted to DMOZ and never got in or are still waiting for ever.
We need input from those who have suffered like us and give us hope by sharing their stories with us.
The internet has proven it is here stay, with that said, many of us take it very serious just like you would with a brick and motar business.
My point is that if there are people who are playing games in regards to DMOZ submittals and are stacking the deck to their advantage, there should be consequences that should be paid, even if this is all volunteer work.
Most people (Human Nature) do not volunteer to do something unless it benefits them. I believe this is what might be happening to DMOZ. My believe is that "some not all" people who have volunteered and accepted as editors intentions are solely to get themselfs listed into their chosen categories for their own financial gain, and now that they are in they can care less about others. With E-commerce submits especially.
In fact they even ask you on your application for editor what sites do you have and whats your interest in becoming an editor. If the editor sees you have a site that will compete with his/hers your application gets rejected and your submittal to your chosen category never gets done. Regardless of your qualifications.
Please understand, I am not saying all the world is bad. There are many fine editors of DMOZ as well as good people, but for many of us who have been in the business for a while it is as plain as black and white what is going on here.
| 6:59 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>To add to the comment about browser compatibility, another thing that can keep a valid site waiting in ODP unreviewed queues for a long time is being flash-only.
Related to this is page load time. The winds are blowing fairly well for my Internet connection, which is 37.3k dial up at this moment. If a site takes forever to load for an editor, they may just bail out and leave it in unreviewed. Not to mention the fact that users of your site may do the exact same thing if on dial up.
| 7:02 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Whee this is fun.
"like God among men"? If you've got those sorts of connections, why whine about an ODP nonlisting?
"sounds like an illegal thing to do" -- but it's not.
| 7:24 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>it is as plain as black and white what is going on here.
You need a color monitor, friend. (-:
Editors don't get veto power over new applicants to categories they work in. In fact, we don't even get veto power over a site. I've left sites in unreviewed before while I worked on more important category matters, then gone back later for the unreviewed site only to find that another editor had already published it. There are dozens of editors with access to each category. It would be impossible for one editor to "stonewall" a submission by leaving it in unreviewed forever. The only times I've noticed a submission to sit forever there despite being checked by multiple editors is if the site isn't working reliably, relies on Flash or a specific browser type, or appears to have content but is largely incomprehensible.
You've correctly hit on why so many ODP applications are turned down, though, in my opinion. An editor who did nothing other than add his own site, or, worse, did something irritating like delete his competitors' site, wastes more of the project's time than he contributes to it. Why would we want to risk letting people like those in? Rather than add to our directory, they would waste other editors' time and therefore slow our growth.
However, there are MANY reasons why the rest of us might want to be editors. Personally, I work in education in real life, so by making good educational sites on the topics I work with more visible and easier to use online, I'm achieving one of my goals. But I also just plain enjoy categorizing things. What can I say, I'm a boring person! (-: If you don't have the librarian's mentality, the ODP is really probably not the place for you to be volunteering your time.
This is hard advice to hear, and I can count the number of people who've actually accepted it when I told it to them on the fingers of one hand: but processing free submissions from the public is -not- actually our primary goal or job as editors, so you really need to be viewing that as an extra. By all means, if your site is the kind of site the ODP is interested in, submit it: many sites do get noticed through the "suggest a site" function and reviewed quite rapidly. But our primary work is scouting out good sites to list ourselves, and the best way to catch our attention for this is to get listings in niche directories, links from other sites we may be visiting, mentions in news articles--all the same things that win you notice from potential customers, search engines, and everybody else, coincidentally enough, so you can't go wrong pursuing them.
There's five or six cents for you. Don't spend them all in one place. (-:
Disclaimer: This post constitutes an unofficial, personal opinion not necessarily shared by other ODP editors, the university, or my cats.
| 8:25 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I have only known you for a short time (since this post) but I respect your comments and also you as a person.
It is very obvious you speak the truth and I have nothing but the utmost respect for people like you who tells it like it is.
<You've correctly hit on why so many ODP applications are turned down, though, in my opinion. An editor who did nothing other than add his own site, or, worse, did something irritating like delete his competitors' site, wastes more of the project's time than he contributes to it.>
This was my whole point from the very beginning. I am glad as least someone had the guts to admit that these things do go on. Especially when it comes to E-commerce sites.
So I guess what you are telling me is that in my particular category if this sort of thing is going on then I will never see the day that my submittal will get listed?
Although I have no proof, (innocent until proven guilty) I have a strong suspicion that this is the case with my category.
Lets call it the conspiracy theory.
| 8:48 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I have a question for any ODP editors out there - if a cat does not have an editor, is it common for other editors to occasionaly visit the cat - or is it safe to assume nobody will touch it until it is assigned an editor?
Also if a cat has remained dormant(no new additions) for a set length of time will editors be removed, asked to be more active, ect.?
| 9:47 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>if a cat does not have an editor, is it common for other editors to occasionaly visit the cat
It is common for high-permission editors to spend nearly _all_ of their time visiting ownerless cats.
>or is it safe to assume nobody will touch it until it is assigned an editor?
No, that's simply not true.
>Also if a cat has remained dormant(no new additions) for a set length of time will editors be removed, asked to be more active, ect.?
No. If an EDITOR has been dormant for several months, the userid will be deactivated. But an editor might have two categories, and spend all their editing time in one of them -- and that would be acceptable.
Or an editor might process thousands of spam/misplaced submittals without finding a single site that actually ought to have been listed there. (I have lists of categories that I visit when I don't feel like writing descriptions, where I can pretty well assume that any submittals are either mis-submitted or spam. So I delete, categorize, move unreviewed, etc. -- hours of necessary work, but the category itself doesn't show any changes.)
| 10:21 pm on Mar 15, 2004 (gmt 0)|
"Sorry you didn't find it as useful."
"Venting" is not useful, violates the forum charter, and is a distraction from the constructive discussions that could take place here. It should not be necessary to bring a box a Kleenex when visiting the Directories forum.
| 12:45 am on Mar 16, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>So I guess what you are telling me is that in my particular category if this sort of thing is going on
>then I will never see the day that my submittal will get listed?
No, not at all. I can see how you could have read my letter that way, but the two issues there are actually quite separate. An editor who joins, adds his own site, and then never logs in again--or more spitefully, who deletes a competitor's site first--is a problem for us as a directory, in my opinion, because it wastes the time of the higher-level editors processing his editor application, monitoring his editing career, and, if necessary, fixing anything he does wrong. It won't hurt you or your site any, though, except insofar as any spamming or attempt to manipulate our directory does: by forcing us to spend our time dealing with it, and thus slowing us down. There's no permanent damage an editor could do, because our system is too well logged and backed up. The only cost of such behavior is in the time of the other editors, which could otherwise be spent building the directory (including adding the sites of more webmasters). I do think this is why many people are frustrated in their attempts to join the ODP. An applicant who seems unlikely to contribute to the directory beyond adding his or her own site is a net debit to our system. If I were a meta (I'm not, so this is completely hypothetical), I wouldn't want to take a chance on anybody I didn't think was likely to add at least a dozen sites to the project.
This certainly has nothing to do with why your site has been sitting in unreviewed for a very long time, though. As we've explained, it would be impossible for an editor who didn't like you to "stonewall" your submission by simply ignoring it; there are too many editors responsible for each category, and one of the others would review it eventually. The likeliest thing is that your site is waiting in a very large backlog of submissions, probably because it's in a category that attracts a horrific amount of spam. Since processing free submissions is, as I've said, not the #1 priority of editors, a site in a pool of hundreds or thousands of other submissions can take a very long time to be reviewed.
I do understand that this is frustrating to you, but it's almost certainly -not- the result of abuse. If your submission is still waiting in the queue where other editors can see it, it can't have been the victim of a malicious competitor. There's no way an editor could force a site to remain unreviewed; it's just not how our system works. There are always multiple editors responsible for every category. It's most likely just a very long line moving slowly, probably with a lot of pernicious spam clogging up the works and slowing everything down yet further.
All of this in my personal and unofficial opinion, you understand. (-:
| 11:59 pm on Mar 16, 2004 (gmt 0)|
There are parts of the directory where sites can wait well over a year to be looked at, in rare circumstances even three years or more.
In most circumstances, a site will be looked at within a few months, weeks or even less time.
The problem is that submitters have no idea what the "insides" of the ODP look like. Sometimes it's an epic battle against expiring sites, spam and a mass of poor submissions with a few gems thrown in.
You can always ask for a check at the ODP Public Forum. This does at least mean that a (usually) senior editor will check the submission queue, category and your site submission.
| 10:27 am on Mar 17, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I don't believe the "conspiracy theory", but in all honesty I also cannot prove you wrong. I can tell you though that if there is even a hint of conspiracy going on in the ODP it will be dealt with swiftly. The charter is very specific, and covers almost everyting an editor might run into. There are far too many reasons to list why it is taking your site so long to be listed, and a number of them have been mentioned above. As RFx has pointed out, there are probably a million plus sites sitting in the que, and yes, some have been there over two years. On a very good day I might review perhaps ten sites, and out of those some will have to me moved (delaying the process even more), some will be deleted for not meeting the guidelines, and the others will be approved. You need to remember the editors are not bots, and the good editors are better than the bots at tracking down spam, cloakers, doorways, mirrors, etc. One submission could take a few minutes, or an hour or more. Editors are doing the best they can with the limited resources available. We must abide by a "code of ethics", but the ODP is a real world enviornment to which some perhaps do not adhere to. An ODP link carries no more weight than any other link, and I see many sites at the top of the SERPS that are not listed in the ODP. Make your submission and just forget about it. You can't change what you can't control.
| 9:12 pm on Mar 17, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Thank You for you honesty, I respect those who have the courage to speak the truth.
Here's a good one for all who are reading this thread.
Out of frustration of waiting almost a year to get listed in my main category I did this:
By reading this thread I have learned that you can submit to sub-categories(regional listings)that apply to your particular situation like home state and town of your business etc...
I submitted to this on Monday 03/15/04. Guess what?
It was listed on Tuesday 03/16/04. WOW! Just one day!
Again as I have learned from this thread, it is my hopes now that some editor will see this regional listing and also place me in the main E-commerce category that I have been waiting for.
Does this mean now that I will have a better or faster chance of being picked up by a surfing editor and have my site submitted to my 1st category I have selected (but yet not in) almost a year ago too?
| This 39 message thread spans 2 pages: 39 (  2 ) > > |