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Open directory inclusions?
notredamekid




msg:483100
 6:30 pm on Aug 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hi guys.

I am working for a medium sized company and we have started a search engine optimization campaign - we entered into a contract with a very large, reputable (and expensive) American SEO firm.

I am the contact between the SEO company and our programmer, and I try to get as much info about how they do things as I can.

Yesterday I had a conversation, asking an employee there how they are planning on getting our site in dmoz, as I know it is nearly impossible to get listed, especially in certain commercial categories.

He replied that they are skilled in getting sites in, and I asked, do you have a special relationship with them or something?

He laughed and said, "Well not exactly, we just get from them the information we need to know how to submit the site correctly so that it will get in" or something similar.

This sounds sort of fishy to me. As I understand it, you can submit a site perfectly correctly (as I feel I have done with many sites in the past) and still there is a strong possibility of not being listed, especially if the category is backed up, which is out of my control.

Has anyone else heard of anything like this? Do some companies have a special relationship with dmoz? or do they know something we don't, some special trick to get us into the directory (the SEO is successful at it, I checked and all of their clients, even very recent ones, are in)? Or are they simply good at writing site submissions and happen to get lucky that the category is edited?

Seems too coincidental to be the latter.

So what's up? Anyone heard of anything like this, or have any guesses?

 

Shak




msg:483101
 7:12 pm on Aug 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

notredamekid,

as long as you get what you want, aka your site listed, are you really bothered.

sometimes 1 can spend too much time thinking about things which dont really matter in the long run.

Shak

notredamekid




msg:483102
 7:24 pm on Aug 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

You're right, as long as I get what I want, why should I wonder?

The reason I wonder, is, I would like to get my own site in... and I don't have six grand like my boss does for SEO. I barely had the 105 I needed for FAST, Teoma and Inktomi! And I am running out of places to ask for reciprocal links.

Allright, I'm sure everyone is tired of people like me whining they can't get in DMOZ, but still, if people are getting in, knowing something the public doesn't know, curiosity can't help but get the better of me.

C'mon, someone at WW knows SOMEthing.

Shak




msg:483103
 7:33 pm on Aug 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

The reason I wonder, is, I would like to get my own site in... and I don't have six grand like my boss does for SEO. I barely had the 105 I needed for FAST, Teoma and Inktomi! And I am running out of places to ask for reciprocal links.

suppose thats what 6 grand buys you then in todays SEO world :)

On a serious note, I have never had a site rejected which was worthy of being included in DMOZ, just kept reading exactlty what the purpose of DMOZ was, and how my site/s could help the directory, in turn helping myself.

Shak

[edited by: Shak at 7:40 pm (utc) on Aug. 5, 2003]

bakedjake




msg:483104
 7:36 pm on Aug 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have never had a site rejected which was worthy of being included in DMOZ

As an editor, and as a submitter, I agree with Shak. Follow the rules, and you'll do fine. Really.

if people are getting in, knowing something the public doesn't know

There is no lumber cartel.

kctipton




msg:483105
 9:17 pm on Aug 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

>This sounds sort of fishy to me.<

Not me. Sounds like the exact thing I want every time I edit - something not needing editing!

steveb




msg:483106
 9:34 pm on Aug 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

It sounds like they submit sites correctly.

<shrug>

victor




msg:483107
 10:03 pm on Aug 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

Every single outstanding submission in the categories I edit is stuck in the unreviewed pool because there is something wrong with it:
  • not enough site yet (lots of links to "under construction" pages)
  • too many javascript errors for me to be able to make sense of the site
  • fails under the browsers I use
  • submitted to regional but no sign on the site of its geographic location
  • etc

    If the owners of those sites paid someone today to fix those problems today, the sites could be listed tomorrow.

    Other sites have been delayed for months -- they've bounced around several categories before being punted over into a category I edit. Some I have to punt elsewhere, because the editor who passed it to me was guessing. Others, I'll list within days of my getting them. They could have been listed months earlier if the submitter had picked the right category.

    An SEO firm who knows how to " how to submit the site correctly so that it will get in" is not magic -- just means they have someone who can read the guidelines and know what DMOZ editors need -- and that's quality sites in the right location, not fishy deals.

  • senox




    msg:483108
     10:22 pm on Aug 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

    >This sounds sort of fishy to me.<

    It would be fishy if they explicitely guarantee you a listing, or if they promise you that your site will be listed within x hours/days/weeks.

    skibum




    msg:483109
     2:41 am on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

    Please don't discuss site specifics here either :)

    There are probably numerous SEOs and Internet Marketing types that are editors at ODP. If they promise a listing in exchange for payment or give ya a listing outside the guidelines or significantly different than others they've put in the category, well it shouldn't happen.

    Probably does here and there. If they make a habit of it, chances are someone will catch on, they'll receive some kind of "reprimand" and listings associated with that editor may be brought back to meet the guidelines.

    People are human and this type of thing probably happens at most directories.

    OntheEdge




    msg:483110
     3:23 am on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

    Same old question and the answer never changes. There's no magic formula, nor deep dark secrets. Read the guidelines, choose the most appropriate category, don't submit a site thats under construction and make your description as easy to accept without editing as you can.
    Our world has corruption, ODP is no exception, but the majority of editors are honest.

    John_Caius




    msg:483111
     10:03 am on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

    He laughed and said, "Well not exactly, we just get from them the information we need to know how to submit the site correctly so that it will get in" or something similar.

    [dmoz.org...]

    That's how easy it is. No wonder he's laughing - it's so simple but so few people seem to look there.

    It always confuses me that webmasters seem to value a dmoz listing as highly as high ranking in Google, yet they spend many hours a week trying to deduce Google's secret algorithm but no time at all reading dmoz's publicly available guidelines for submission. I just don't get it.

    The problem is, the submitter wants both the listing and the keywords in the description, when it's really only getting listed that will affect SERP position. If the submitter didn't bother about keyword-stuffing the submission, as is highly recommended in the guidelines, they'd stand a much better chance of getting listed and would almost certainly get listed more quickly. Plenty of editors have posted here and elsewhere to say that they process guidelines-compliant submissions before going through and rewriting all the keyword-stuffed ones.

    Take this piece of information on board - the guidelines are there for a reason, read them, stick to them and you will almost certainly significantly speed up the review of your site.

    trillianjedi




    msg:483112
     12:33 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

    Take this piece of information on board - the guidelines are there for a reason, read them, stick to them and you will almost certainly significantly speed up the review of your site.

    Mind if I take that a stage further?

    After reading the guidelines, study the directory cat. you want to get into. Look at the writers style of descriptions. Then copy it.

    If you want to get in fast you need to make a submission that leaves the editor with nothing to do except hit the publish button. If he has to make even one change to get it right, then expect a delay. And that's your own fault.

    Works for me every time. Have never waited more than two weeks to get a dmoz listing and in cats where there are editors, I usually get it in 1-2 days.

    Now, can someone please explain to me the secret with getting a Yahoo! free listing?! LOL

    TJ

    kevinpate




    msg:483113
     1:56 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

    It's not fishy if that person has limited volunteer time to assist at dmoz at at all and deliberately limits personal involvement as a result of external constraints.

    It's not fishy if the person has asked for other areas, but has been turned away because the other areas were too large, etc.

    I'm not a dmoz editor, but I edit elsewhere. With the limited time I have available, if I applied at dmoz and was accepted, I personally wouldn't be looking to expand my involvement very wide. There are only so many hours in the day and some of those simply must be reserved to enjoy family, good food and friends.

    Some views in the vast ocean of possibilities are indeed fishless.

    trillianjedi




    msg:483114
     2:51 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

    Some views in the vast ocean of possibilities are indeed fishless.

    Inspired! Did you make that one up?

    TJ

    John_Caius




    msg:483115
     2:55 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

    That or he's paraphrasing a certain Eric Cantona...

    kctipton




    msg:483116
     6:33 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

    >>Look at the writers style of descriptions. Then copy it. <<

    Better compare what you see with what you _should_ see. If they are too different, ignore the category's current state. The whole area may be badly described and/or titled.

    Shak




    msg:483117
     6:41 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

    When I said $10,000 that is a drop in the bucket to this catagory. I know a firm that spends $500,000 a year on one keyword in the PPC's. Probably about $2,000,000 a year on that whole keyword genre. About 10 or so words. I am sure they go after other words as well.

    why, oh why, would such a company be bothered whether they are in Dmoz or not.

    With that sort of budget Anchor Text links on some of the worlds leading destination sites are possible.

    Shak

    Brett_Tabke




    msg:483118
     9:10 pm on Aug 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

    Anyway - back on topic.

    Like most have said in this thread, there is little involved (other than talent) to get a good Dmoz listing. From what I have seen and heard, that talent is rare. Here is what I've noticed:

    a) most seo's that have problems with dmoz do so because they don't know how to write a good description.

    Bad descriptions by seos are often rejected because they attempt to lace them with keywords. Most editors see that stuff a mile away and never approve it.

    We recently had a huge thread in the supporters forum here asking people what kind of sites they had problems getting listed in the odp. I had one seo contact me privately with 20 listings he could not get listed. Within 30 seconds of reading them, I agreed with the editors that they should not have been in Dmoz either. The seo was flabergasted and couldn't understand it. After pain stakingly walking him through it, he finally understood. Out of that 20 sites, we finally got 12 of them listed (the other 8 were nuked because he'd over submitted them).

    rfgdxm1




    msg:483119
     2:23 am on Aug 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

    >With that sort of budget Anchor Text links on some of the worlds leading destination sites are possible.

    And for a small fraction of that a *lot* of anchor text links on sites that aren't leading destinations, but do have high PR, is possible.

    Firefighter




    msg:483120
     8:44 am on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

    "there is little involved (other than talent) to get a good Dmoz listing."

    I have to disagree with this. I submitted my site every two months to the ODP and was still not listed after a YEAR! The category I was submitting to had no editor, but the editor from the category above usually did the editing for my category.

    A new editor was assigned to the category, and I was listed in a week! Not only that, I was givin a "cool site" icon! So here is my question: What happens when your competition is editing the category you're trying to get listed in? I can't say for sure that is what happened, but it's the only explanation I can think of.

    I also don't want to get the editor in trouble who finally listed my site, but I contacted him and he told me something very interesting. The other editor had rejected my site each time and stated the reason as "Affiliate Site".

    I won't post my URL, but those of you with full access can take a look at my site, and you'll see that it is FAR from an affiliate site! The other editor had absolutely no legitimate reason for rejecting my listing, especially considering some of the other sites that were listed!

    ODP says "Humans do it better", well, humans can also do it any way that helps them, or hurts their competition. I have had litteraly hundreds and hundreds of people tell me I have THE BEST ******* website they have ever seen. I'm glad I finally got listed in DMOZ. We all know how much it can help PR, especially once google updates it's own directory, but I have absolutely no respect for the ODP at all!

    Has anyone else had a similar problem?

    chrisholgate




    msg:483121
     11:29 am on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

    Obviously it would be against Dmoz regulations and I’d never dream of doing anything of the sort myself but do you reckon that there are certain Dmoz editors who are 'bent' as it were and as such do have a special relationship with various SEO companies as notredamekid jokingly suggested?

    If you were a category editor and someone offered you £1,000 to rapidly include their would you say no? Humans may do it better but humans are also more prone to underhand tactics. Just a thought….

    totalXSive




    msg:483122
     3:36 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

    If you were a category editor and someone offered you £1,000 to rapidly include their would you say no?

    If you didn't say 'no' and you were found out, you wouldn't be an editor for much longer.

    chrisholgate




    msg:483123
     3:49 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

    I understand that.... It's unlikely you'd be found out but even if you did, you'd still have a thousand pounds in your back pocket even if you were no longer an editor....

    I'm not saying it's a good idea and I'm not saying that anyone on this forum would ever do it, myself included but it was just food for thought... A human system is ultimately more fellable; you can't after all offer a bribe to Googlebot.

    rfgdxm1




    msg:483124
     11:14 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

    >I understand that.... It's unlikely you'd be found out but even if you did, you'd still have a thousand pounds in your back pocket even if you were no longer an editor....

    Baloney, at least in terms of real world scenarios. There just isn't any category where a site would qualify for that I can imagine rapid inclusion being worth £1,000. I doubt if there is anyone wanting an ODP listing that is sufficiently rich, stupid and insane enough to pay that sort of money.

    Firefighter




    msg:483125
     12:01 am on Aug 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

    Thanks, got it! Thought it was something specific to WebmasterWorld.

    smine




    msg:483126
     7:04 am on Aug 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

    chrisholgate: do you reckon that there are certain Dmoz editors who are 'bent'

    Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Urban legend stuff.

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