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DMOZ listing is on a PR3 page, what can I do?
GodLikeLotus




msg:489290
 12:13 am on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

A site I am helping with is listed in DMOZ but the page only has a PR3. Is there anything you can do. With the noticable recent lowering of PR, I suspect that many sites have lost links from PR4 pages that have been lowered to PR3 pages.

 

hurlimann




msg:489291
 12:39 am on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

Find a better cat to get listed in that has a higher PR. Quite hard as you probably need to get two eds involved.

I had the oposite today. I found a company with about 9 dmoz listings under various spam domains. The problem is that I only edit the one that has the prime url that should be listed!

My understanding of the rules means they should stay in my cat and they have. They have won this battle but.......

bird




msg:489292
 12:53 am on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

GodLikeLotus,
if the site in question is listed in the correct category regarding its content, then there's nothing you can do without annoying an arbitrary number of editors. The ODP doesn't care about PageRank and will not move sites around because of it.

Hurlimann,
post your story in the ODP internal Meta forum, and the problem will most likely be solved within hours.

caine




msg:489293
 12:57 am on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

Yep. have to agree with Bird on this one.

let the necessary individuals know, and it will get dealt with quickly.

skibum




msg:489294
 1:47 am on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

hurlimann - One of the EA's or Metas would probably be happy to fix things.

ODP doesn't care one bit about the PR of a cat where a site is listed so it would take a very creative reason to bring about a change IMHO.

fathom




msg:489295
 3:26 am on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

A site I am helping with is listed in DMOZ but the page only has a PR3. Is there anything you can do.

Assuming this is the best topical category which represents your site, why not link to it making it a reciprocal exchange.

1. On topic/theme

2. Your PR will boost the PR for the page.

3. An extra small amount will be transferred back to you.

4. If you link out now -- I would bet the other sites in the category are equally important to your topic/theme.

Assuming the linked pages are of a higher PR than PR3 can easily be changed to PR or above.

Mark Candiotti




msg:489296
 11:21 am on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

"If you link out now -- I would bet the other sites in the category are equally important to your topic/theme."

Some people just don't get it... :-) We're all "nice" here, but c'mon, some of us actually compete (ohmigod!) in certain spheres, this being one of them.

(sigh)

fathom




msg:489297
 12:23 pm on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

some of us actually compete

Well yes I agree here.

It all about "risk management".

If you have no exposure, you have no traffic, so you're not giving much up.

You may also notice that few sites receive extremely high visitor to sales conversions. In these instances, that these visitors did not buy, did you actually stop them from going to the competitor, simply because you had no link?

Competition is good, and linking to a specific few:

1. Gives you exposure and traffic, more than what you had.

2. Gives you control - control where visitors go if they are not in the buying mood.

3. Stickiness - you made not have what they wanted at the time, but they may remember you just for the sake of the path.

4. Quality is quality - most sites in DMOZ are quality sites.

There are some circumstances where the link may not be appropriate... but being afraid of the competition shouldn't be one (unless they have far superior products or servcies). ;)

Mark Candiotti




msg:489298
 2:00 pm on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi Fathom

Thanks for the response. The best place to link to - using the specifics of my unnamed industry only - is often a tertiary site or to a site with a very high (PR) ranking, but which is rather benign, i.e., weather, etc. But rarely (and I would guess this to be true across industries) would it be advisable to link within a cat, as they're all pretty well organized to be specific to the topic and therefore likely an immediate competitor. I link to other related sites all the time quite successfully, for various reasons and almost always satisfy the criteria you mentioned. It was simply linking directly within the cat that was my objection.

Taking this a step further, I've always felt that if Google were wanting to penalize "incestuous" links, a good way to do it would be to penalize any site linking to another site within the SAME ODP category. Only mirrored affiliates (often well camouflauged) ever do this - others refrain for the practical reasons cited above. Just my two cents.

MC

yapuka




msg:489299
 4:45 pm on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hello,

Linking to other sites listed in the same ODP Category might be rare in the commercial areas, but is quite the norm in other informative categories.

I don't think Google could therefore use it a criteria.

Dante_Maure




msg:489300
 5:02 pm on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

if Google were wanting to penalize "incestuous" links, a good way to do it would be to penalize any site linking to another site within the SAME ODP category.

Never happen.

If anything, Google may very well be awarding sites for this practice, if not now, then some time in the not too distant future... and search engines that are already theme based most certainly do.

The only kind of "incestuous" neighborhoods Google or anyone else would want to penalize are closed-loop schemes where a small minority of sites only link to each other and have a lack of significant inbound links from sites outside the loop.

Linking within one's "community" of similarly themed pages is a natural expression of the WEB by design. This type of inter-linking is how it earned this name in the first place.

Only mirrored affiliates (often well camouflauged) ever do this

I think you need to spend a bit more time outside of your niche. If you can find me an ODP category with more than 50 listings where not one site listed links to any of the others, I'll eat my hat and post a jpeg of it for all to see. :)

fathom




msg:489301
 6:09 pm on Nov 13, 2002 (gmt 0)

A site I am helping with is listed in DMOZ but the page only has a PR3. Is there anything you can do. With the noticable recent lowering of PR, I suspect that many sites have lost links from PR4 pages that have been lowered to PR3 pages.

Back to GodLikeLotus... the main point is DMOZ listing will help you regardless of the PageRank. As more sites continue to use DMOZ RDF and attach DMOZ banners to sites the current PageRank will rebound.

A little innovation can help improve things over the short term.

Linking online is no different than (other than being significantly cheaper) exposing yourself in a catalogue, magazine, newspaper, TV, Radio, and every other medium that you don't own and the same place that your competitior advertise.

Few stand and retort... (IBM) I'm not advertising on that TV station Microsoft is there and will steal my customers right out from under me".

"creditability" and "branding" - people remember when you give them something to remember.

Small unknown companies (websites) need to be seen or appear to be associated with know companies and sites or at least in the presence of other "quality" sites.

In the fast food (off-line) business MacDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Pizza Hut, KFC, etc. all seem to appear at the 4 corners of an intersection -- They're direct competitor right... why would they want to be so close.

In Amazon, 30 million competitive products, why would they want to be so close, just a click away.

Traffic breeds itself... when they know where you are, and people have a choice.

Mark Candiotti




msg:489302
 1:10 am on Nov 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

"In the fast food (off-line) business MacDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Pizza Hut, KFC, etc. all seem to appear at the 4 corners of an intersection -- They're direct competitor right... why would they want to be so close."

Zoning, most likely...still, I don't think ANY of those places place a menu to the others on their counters... :-)

Perhaps all WebmasterWorld SEO topics should be divided into those discussing commercial enterprises and those not - especially when it comes to ODP/Google/Yahoo. It would help avoid the continual bantering between the camps so that real issues within each area can be addressed. It's easy for us/me to get drawn into it.

Marcia




msg:489303
 2:12 am on Nov 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

Mark, you're right. Whether sites are commercial or not makes a huge difference in attitude, especially where linking is concerned.

Particularly where PR is concerned, and how links are done, sites in the same category can have widely different PR and some rank much higher than the others. We can actually give a direct competitor a link, even if it's reciprocated, that would push them up in the SERPs, literally giving them a decided advantage over us. It'll cost sales, traffic and money, and certainly not make for happy clients.

If we read the first post, it's a very finely focused question:

A site I am helping with is listed in DMOZ but the page only has a PR3. Is there anything you can do. With the noticable recent lowering of PR, I suspect that many sites have lost links from PR4 pages that have been lowered to PR3 pages.

This thread was originally in the Google forum, and was moved here to the Directories forum so it would stay focused and on topic, which is specifically ODP related.

Perhaps all WebmasterWorld SEO topics should be divided into those discussing commercial enterprises and those not - especially when it comes to ODP/Google/Yahoo. It would help avoid the continual bantering between the camps so that real issues within each area can be addressed. It's easy for us/me to get drawn into it.


Agreed, we often see differences in perspective, though some topics relate to either. This thread very narrowly relates to where a site is in ODP and what can be done within the policies of ODP. If we stay within the parameters of the original topic without diverting into other areas, whatever bantering there is at least stays confined to addressing the issue of the thread instead of getting off the point altogether.

Personally, for this thread (which is about ODP not reciprocal linking) I've got a bit of interest because a site I work with has changed focus since it was listed. It's a PR5 category which still fits, but has broadened - which would take it up to the cat above which is PR7, BUT has also added to product line, which could qualify it for a similar category where they're divided alphabetically - and does NOT have the best keywords in the cat title by any means. Asking for a change could result not in PR7, but down to a 4 with a less desirable listing.

What's done with a site as far as linking is concerned is a whole different issue than the ODP listing, one has nothing to do with the other. So hearing what editors have to say, according to the specific subject of the thread, is what's most helpful, because it's something to consider about timing of submission if it's expected that a site's focus will be changed in future - which happens to be the case for a couple of sites coming up.

Dante_Maure




msg:489304
 6:24 am on Nov 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

Perhaps all WebmasterWorld SEO topics should be divided into those discussing commercial enterprises and those not

No doubt that there are a few areas where the commercial vs. non-commercial camps may never see eye to eye, but you're mistaken if you think that the challenges made to your assertions above are due to this.

In my own business I will gladly link to competitors depending on the context, arrangement, or potential benefit to my own bottom line.

What we're facing here is a fundamental difference in business philosophy not an issue of commercial vs non-commercial.

As Marcia mentions above you must weigh the potential risks vs. gains in each situation, but in general I've been a successful business owner for over a decade using a model of mutually beneficial cooperation over that of competition.

While other businesses spend an exhorbitant amount of time, energy, and money on first time customer acquisitions through advertising and SEO... I'll happily focus my energy developing mutually beneficial Join Ventures and co-promotion arrangements with folks that are already reaching my ideal target market. A resulting boost in the SERPs is just an additional perk.

I know internet business owners that are making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year by promoting, and being promoted by their "competition".

I can create an edge for my business with factors like target marketing, psychographics, and unique selling propositions, which give me the confidence to not be afraid of doing business with my competition.

If the only way I can distinguish myself from the competition is through visibility, a single algo change and the bottom of my business drops out. By investing in mutually beneficial business partnerships, even with my direct "competitors", I have a much more stable business model.

Not to mention that I find this a much more enjoyable and fulfilling way of doing business. :)

still, I don't think ANY of those places place a menu to the others on their counters... :-)

Perhaps not, but when I do a search at Yahoo, and reach the bottom of the results I find the following:

Search in other search engines
AltaVista -  Ask Jeeves -  More...

In a world where many people view business as "dog eat dog", I'd rather work with a pack, than be a lone mongrel. ;)

fathom




msg:489305
 8:26 am on Nov 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

Dante_Maure has expressed 100% my observations for developing "opportunities", in and out of DMOZ and Google.

Although "tried and true" methods of business and marketing provide returns, they tend not to produce exceptional returns.

With opportunity come "risk", managing that risk allows growth, avoiding that risk "at all costs" serves no useful purpose.

GodLikeLotus original question about DMOZ and PageRank was answered directly by bird with a very simply "no", if looking at the question from normal guidance.

Simply stating that: GodLikeLotus has no real recourse (is this really true?).

This thread has expanded into many other issues/concerns that may be best covered in other Forums.

The web however, isn't that streamlined, and rigid.

I apologize for moving off-topic.

Rod

Dante_Maure




msg:489306
 9:16 am on Nov 14, 2002 (gmt 0)

Marcia, you did a noble job of trying to reign in the wild tangents, and while I feel the points made in my last post are important, they certainly extend far beyond the specific ODP issue at hand.

Add my apologies to the Off Topic's Most Wanted folder next to fathom's. ;)

In a somewhat feeble attempt to bring things full circle to the original controvertial idea that caused the tangent... linking back to the ODP category to help provide a boost.

In support of this seemingly counter-intuitive business approach, doing offline sales prospecting I found that nothing built credibility more with a potential prospect than confidently inviting them to research my competition. After educating them sufficiently on the benefits of buying/working with my company, this was often the clincher. They would go out and do their due diligence and find that other outfits just talked about themselves, or even went so far as belittling the competition. Unsurprisingly, I had a much higher than industry average in my closing rate.

People are going to check out other options *anyway*. Take advantage of this fact, and use it as a positioning tool by holding the door open for them. ;)

</off topic ranting>

To return to the original question at hand...

I suspect that many sites have lost links from PR4 pages that have been lowered to PR3 pages.

First, this is a misunderstanding.

Just because Google's "link:" command isn't displaying the backlinks doesn't mean that they're "lost". They still pass on PR like any other page.

Is there anything you can do.

Find a related topic further up the category tree that...

- Has a higher PR
- Is still very relevant to your target market
- Is not overwhelmed with other site listings

Add additional pages to your existing site that would be worthy of inclusion there, or create an additional site to support your existing one.

Marcia, on this same idea, is there additional content that could be added to the site in question which would further reinforce it's broader relevancy and authority in the eyes of an editor?

Depending on the niche it's in, a two PR boost from an inbound could be well worth the time invested. Additional benefits beyond ODP could also be realized by broadening your appropriate pool of recip partners and relevant keywords.

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