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Page Rank and Inbound Credits
Is inbound PR value measured from url or domain?
rudy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 9:54 pm on Jun 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

As I was tring to find high PR sites to link to me,
I came across a dilema. If www.indexpagesite1.com
has a PR of 5 but the page that where my link will
sit on such as www.indexpagesite1.com/links/ only has
a page rank of 3, does this mean this is the PR value
given to the inbound link?
What I'm getting at is do I need to worry about the PR]
value of the page linking to me or is the root domain's
PR value good enough?

Thanks

 

vitaplease

WebmasterWorld Senior Member vitaplease us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 6:32 am on Jun 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

Good question Rudy,

Pagerank - as the name indicates - is for the specific page itself. Many people say my site has a PR of X. What they mean is their homepage or index page has that PR.

For your own pagerank, it is important what pagerank the page has that links to you.
However you will nearly never get a link from someone's home- or index page.
Also the less links on that page, the better.

Even better is to get a link from a page which is highly on topic with the page on your site it is linking to. That is, that the topic or theme or specific subjects on your page are also on the page that is linking to you (including a descriptive anchortext).

fathom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member fathom us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 6:44 am on Jun 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

In addition to vitaplease comments, receiving a link from a page that currently has no links is better than a page with 2 - 100 or more links.

PR is divided by the number of outbound links on a specific page.

And in general most home pages have higher PR than secondary pages since inbound often go to the home page.

Even better is to get a link from a page which is highly on topic with the page on your site it is linking to. That is, that the topic or theme or specific subjects on your page are also on the page that is linking to you (including a descriptive anchortext).

If you plan this out well many of your secondary pages can exceed the homepage PR value.

rudy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 6:39 pm on Jun 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

Fathom,

I'm confused by this statement:
receiving a link from a page that currently has no links is better than
a page with 2 - 100 or more links.

I don't understand. I thought pagerank was mainly determined by inbound links.
I though the strategy was to get inbound links and this will increase the pagerank.
Are you saying the ideal is to have an inbound link from a page that only has my link
on it and nothing or no one elses? If this is what your saying, is this even a reality?

buckworks

WebmasterWorld Administrator buckworks us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 7:06 pm on Jun 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

If a page has lots of links on it, whatever PR that page can pass on is divided into more pieces than if it just had a few links. A link from a low PR page might be more valuable than you expect if there are only a few links on the page. Remember that if the low PR page is a good match for your theme, it may boost you in other ways besides PR. Remember the number that matters most is not PR, it is your rank in the SERPs!

fathom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member fathom us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 7:13 pm on Jun 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

Vitaplease has a great writeup on this but I can find it.

An inbound link is "a vote" for your site. A page with 2 outbound links (one of which is going to you) divides that vote in half (that PR value)

4 outbound links (one of which is going to you) divides that vote in quarters (PR).

Although their are many other factors your "targets" for linking to you should be

on topic - relevant to your "PAGE" content

higher or same PR (having a no PR (grey bar) could be a diamond in rough but since not indexed you really don't know if this is good or bad linkage). Best to use a Javascript link from your page so a potential PR0 site doesn't affect your site.

LESS IS MORE - your site PR3, a site (page) with PR5 and 100 outbound links (only 1 to you) is worth less to you than a site (page) with PR4 and 1 link (yours).

rudy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 8:03 pm on Jun 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

Ok. I get it. Thanks for explaining the PR division.

This is very good info.

Thanks

JayC

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 8:20 pm on Jun 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

Even better is to get a link from a page which is highly on topic with the page on your site it is linking to. That is, that the topic or theme or specific subjects on your page are also on the page that is linking to you (including a descriptive anchortext).

That would be better generally for ranking purposes, but that theming wouldn't play a role in increasing the PageRank of your page.

rudy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 9:29 pm on Jun 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

So the ideal senario would be to have a dozen or so sites that link to you from a page that has good PR and then to make sure that only your link sits on that page.

Ok.But every link page on a site has many outbound links and since they are trading,
most likely the same amount of inbound links.
So when is it better to have say a dozen inbound links from other sites?
So as a conclusion there is no advantage to having many inbound links. One inbound from each site is the ideal situation Correct?

dstanovic

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 10:55 pm on Jun 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

I would worry more about getting links that will drive targeted traffic to your site and not be hung up on PR. ;)

My 2-cents

fathom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member fathom us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 11:26 pm on Jun 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

Authoritative sites have lots of inbound links!

The more "on topic" links you have coming to each individual web page the more relevant you appear to a specific topic or "keyword/phrase".

In general, you really can't get alot of inbounds from others site unless there is some reason or some benefit for them to link to you. Hence your outbound link.

A hubs on the other hand is the exact opposite "a directory". Lots of outbound links that aggregate
topical information. Hubs grab PR from tons of back links. Ultimately these are the sites you want to point to you and as many pages as possibly. Bear in mind, my first point, a page that has 1000 links on it gives you little.

vitaplease

WebmasterWorld Senior Member vitaplease us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 6:15 am on Jun 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

That would be better generally for ranking purposes, but that theming wouldn't play a role in increasing the PageRank of your page.

Jayc, Strictly pagerank spoken, you are correct.

Soon themed links will help more in "a pagerank manner" though - [webmasterworld.com...]

See the "Genetic Search Algorithm" in the Google programming contest.
[google.com...]

I wonder if Google will vary the "donated" pagerank acording to this new algorithm, or if Google will just adjust the ranking for a specific query.

rudy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 10:31 pm on Jun 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Fathom,

You lost me. What are hubs in the context you are using?

The other thing I'm thinking is if I launch a new site with no inbound links at all, what is the default PR asigned to it when it goes on google?

And how can a page have a PR of 5 and yet no backlinks if backlinks is what determines high PR?

JayC

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 11:17 pm on Jun 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

The other thing I'm thinking is if I launch a new site with no inbound links at all, what is the default PR asigned to it when it goes on google?

A site with no links to it at all, as Google themselves say on their own site, wouldn't be in the index at all. If it did happen, presumably its PR would be zero.

And how can a page have a PR of 5 and yet no backlinks if backlinks is what determines high PR?

Again, a page with no links to it wouldn't be in Google -- it's an orphaned page. PageRank "flows" not only from outside links, but also through your internal link structure. So your example page might have a PR of 5 because it's linked to from another of your pages with a higher PR. For PageRank calculation purposes, there's no real difference between a link from a page within the same site and a link from an outside page.

Vitaplease, that was exactly my point. The original question was specifically about PageRank, and presumably about PageRank as it's calculated today. :)

But really I agree with dstanovic; focusing too much on building PR to the neglect of just getting good links and performing strong on-page optimization is failing to see the forest for the trees. And in the end will probably be beaten in actual serp positioning by those who concentrated instead on those two techniques.

fathom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member fathom us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 11:24 pm on Jun 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

What are hubs in the context you are using?

A hub is a website that links to many sites of similiar topics and all links are (outbound) from the same page. (Dmoz.org is a hub)

The other thing I'm thinking is if I launch a new site with no inbound links at all, what is the default PR asigned to it when it goes on google?

In theory PR0, there really wouldn't be any PR (page rank) for any page in this site. PR is achieved only by inbound links. (some PR might be possibly through the internal link structure of the site but if so wouldn't amount to much)

And how can a page have a PR of 5 and yet no backlinks if backlinks is what determines high PR?

A page with no back links has no real PR. What you may be seeing (in the google tool bar) (showing half green for PR5) is only a guessament!

dstanovic

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 11:30 pm on Jun 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

JayC,
<<A site with no links to it at all, as Google themselves say on their own site, wouldn't be in the index at all. If it did happen, presumably its PR would be zero.>>

I had zero links to my site when it was indexed (just the index page) and it was and still has PR5 from day five of being posted to the web. I may have 5-6 links to the site now and a DMOZ listing that Google should pick up.
The PR assigned is just a estimated figure from google on new sites such as mine.

fathom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member fathom us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 12:25 am on Jun 6, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi rudy,

Page Rank is only a scale.

Another site wouldn't link to you unless there was value to that site's owner (generally this is offering the visitors of their site something more than what is currently offered - a link to you because you expand their content).

Google usings this philosophy to "attempt" placing web pages in order of importance for searcher's query, The more links going to you the more others believe you are of greater value to the searcher.

There are many other factors involved such that if you get too rapped up in the scale you will lose sight of why google using it.

A visitor comes to your site for what...? Look for other sites that have the same type of visitors as you have. Find something on their site that:

Complements your information and also look at where your information could add value for visitors going to the other site.

Ask the site owner if they would like to exchange links. Try doing this with web pages that have very specific topics (your link out) and look for the same thing from other sites.

The more sites you do this with the better.

Sites like www.dmoz.org do not require you to link back so if do don't need to, don't.

Always keep links on topic, don't ask for links that have nothing to do with your site's topics.

If you do this enough, google will take care of PR as while as your ranked position.

Rod

rudy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 1:56 am on Jun 6, 2002 (gmt 0)

JayC,

"A site with no links to it at all, as Google themselves say on their own site, wouldn't be in the index at all. If it did happen, presumably its PR would be zero. "

Ok, so the index page of this site
that is in the google now that has PR5 and no backlinks, this index page has links to it from many other pages within the same site that also have a high pagerank themselves.

Ok. So does this mean that the index page of this site has built it's PR of 5 by merely referals from other pages within it's own site. Is it possible to do this?

"But really I agree with dstanovic; focusing too much on building PR to the neglect of just getting good links .."

I though good links ment links from high PR pages of sites. Do you mean not sharing a PR page with to many other links on the page?

I'm getting the impression your telling me you can still get a high ranking on google while still having a low PR. I have not found this.
All high ranking search sites had at least a PR 4

Fathom,

"A page with no back links has no real PR. What you may be seeing (in the google tool bar) (showing half green for PR5) is only a guessament!"

A guessament?. You lost me. This guess is ranking the index page #1 for my keywords of a competitor site.

dstanovic,
"he PR assigned is just a estimated figure from google on new sites such as mine."

How is this estimate establishes on new sites. I guess internal links and tarketed keywords in anchors, text, <title> etc....?

So if I get a new site listed on google with no inbound links with a PR 5, would it be fair to say that my ranking on google will be roughly the same as another site that also has a PR 5 but a few inbound links(which I have none of)?

I found it very difficult to find pages of sites that will link to me with a PR of 4 or 5 and those that do require a link back. I don't like the idea of outbound links because I could lose my clients to often. Of course, if this is the only way , this is still better than what I have going now. PR0 and PR2.

So the next best thing I see that may be a reality is 2 dozen or so pages of sites that link to me with each page having a PR of 3. I presume if I have enough of these it could raise my PR to 4 or 5 no?

"Always keep links on topic, don't ask for links that have nothing to do with your site's topics. "

Do you mean titles and descriptions when submitting a link? Please explain.

fathom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member fathom us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 4:39 am on Jun 6, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi Rudy,

Is it fair to say that my ranking on google will be roughly the same as another site that also has a PR 5

No. First PR is Page Rank (for a page) many members talk about their "site" page rank but they really mean a single page and usually their home page.

A newly indexed page is given a PR simply because google doesn't know much about it. If the actual page rank formula was applied your Page Rank would be almost zero. Google give you a chance to develop while it learn how your page fit into the mix of the ones it already knows.

Without having incoming links your page will decrease in PR as google learns that others (site owners) do not find your information useful to the overall topic of "widgets" as an example. Less links...less important and lower potential than a site with incoming links.

A guessament?. This guess is ranking the index page #1 for my keywords of a competitor site.

Not really. Page Rank and ranked position are not directly related to each other.

A site can ranked #1 for a specific keyword for a number of reasons:

Very low competition
Page highly optimized on the keyword
good keyword density
keyword used in the title tag
keyword used as title elements, image "alt" tags and link anchor text.

If you develop a site (and all its pages) with these is mind then you will receive good ranked position on some of your keywords or phrases and possibly on the term used by your competitor. And possibily without page rank.

I found it very difficult to find pages of sites that will link to me with a PR of 4 or 5 and those that do require a link back.

Directories are a good place to start, like www.dmoz.org and www.euroseek.com. It is possible to get a least two listings (or links) in each. 1 Regional and 1 for the product, service or industry that your in.


I don't like the idea of outbound links because I could lose my clients to often. Of course, if this is the only way , this is still better than what I have going now. PR0 and PR2.

If by clients you mean web site visitors, yes you may lose some but with a good "link" match you will gain visitors as well.

"Always keep links on topic, don't ask for links that have nothing to do with your site's topics."

Linking to and getting links from sites that are in some way related to your information, products, or services.

If you sell (for example: widgets) try reciprocal links with the manufacturer of your widgets, or companies that sell widgets parts, have a different widget types than you, specialize in widget training, or possibly your customer's web sites who have bought your widgets.

otherS: Industry associations and identify widget companies in a different regions, to expand your market reach.

Above all try these not because of PR or ranked position. Do it to develop a better relationhip with your customers. In the end PR will develop itself.

rudy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 7:43 pm on Jun 6, 2002 (gmt 0)

Fathom,

The competitor site ranked #1 on google with PR5 I was refering to is found by using 2 keywords not one. They are also very competitive keywords
400k seaches/month according to overture.
This site has done all the page optimization you were refering to in the <title>keyword , headings keywords on page etc.....

There were sites that had inbound links that ranked lower.

<<Directories are a good place to start, like www.dmoz.org and www.euroseek.com. It is possible to get a least two listings (or links) in each. 1 Regional and 1 for the product, service or industry that your in.>>

I don't understand this. Can you elaborate on this please. On dmoz I heard 1 site per organization period.

<<If you sell (for example: widgets) try reciprocal links with the manufacturer of your widgets, or companies that sell widgets parts, have a different widget types than you, specialize in widget training, or possibly your customer's web sites who have bought your widgets.>>

I pressume you mean that the word widgets must be on the page or in the anchor that I am linking to.

For instance if I am linking to <a href="www.louger-widget-industries.com </a> and inturn they have a link to me on their site to <a href="www.widget-world.com" google will see the keyword simularity between linked sites and give them both more weight etc...
The keyword or words must be shared between myself and link trading partners otherwise google will not know that louger-industries is doing business in widgets.
I guess if I can't find a site that has the keywords in their url the next best thing is to make sure the keywords are at least in the body or title of the page they want to put my link on.
Right so far?

Thanks

fathom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member fathom us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 9:00 pm on Jun 6, 2002 (gmt 0)

They are also very competitive keywords
400k seaches/month according to overture.

Competivitive in the content I was using is the number of results or other site sumitting to the keyword phrase.

This site has done all the page optimization you were refering to in the <title>keyword , headings keywords on page etc.....

cloaking might be used here so the browser displays and different page than what googlebot reads. Go to google type in the domain name www.company.com and click on cache. Review the source of the cache and compare to the source from the search results.

There were sites that had inbound links that ranked lower.

Links and PR may be the difference help but they are not the only considerations. A combinations of many provide SERPs.

dmoz.org and euroseek.com

I don't understand this. Can you elaborate on this please. On dmoz I heard 1 site per organization period.

you can receive
(1) city/province/state listing
(1) a country listing (if you have information is relevant to a larger group "market" or sell products national or internationally
(1 or 2) an informative listing (if you have information that is different to other listings)

Exmaples
An interactive demonstration of a widget in use.

Informative information of the industry and not promoting your company.


If you sell (for example: widgets) try reciprocal links with the manufacturer of your widgets, or companies that sell widgets parts, have a different widget types than you, specialize in widget training, or possibly your customer's web sites who have bought your widgets.

I pressume you mean that the word widgets must be on the page or in the anchor that I am linking to.


Yes

For instance if I am linking to <a href="www.louger-widget-industries.com </a> and inturn they have a link to me on their site to <a href="www.widget-world.com" google will see the keyword simularity between linked sites and give them both more weight etc...
Yes

In addition <a href="www.louger-widget-industries.com" title="louger widget industries">louger widget industries</a> is a much better use.

The keyword or words must be shared between myself and link trading partners otherwise google will not know that louger-industries is doing business in widgets.

Correct

I guess if I can't find a site that has the keywords in their url the next best thing is to make sure the keywords are at least in the body or title of the page they want to put my link on. Right so far?
Perfect!
But don't forget the link to you should be
<a href="rudys-page.html" title="rudy">rudy</a>

and give this to the site owner so they don't need to make it up!

Great Rudy! we've come along way since last night!

Rod

[edited by: fathom at 9:06 pm (utc) on June 6, 2002]

fathom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member fathom us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 382 posted 9:03 pm on Jun 6, 2002 (gmt 0)

format problem paynt!

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