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My Biggest Competitors Links have me Completely Baffled?
What are they doing and HOW are They Doing IT..!!!!
Village Idiot




msg:421141
 12:15 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

I've bout had it up to here Trying to figure out WHAT my Biggest Competitor is doing and HOW they are obtaining all their massive links they are getting pointing to THEM...!!!!! Ok, here's the Story.... I'm trying my best to follow the tracks in regards to my biggest competitors links they have going to them.... they have thousands.... First of all I have went to their Site countless times in search of some kind of a links directory of theirs that one might suspect them having to have..... There is NONE, no where....?!?!?! Next what I do is run a check on their Link Status in various places.... you know the usual Link:http://www.yourwebsitegoeshere.com .... Ok, so here I have "The List" of other sites linking to them.... So now what I have been doing is to go and visit some of the same sites that have linked to them to in the hopes of soliciting a reciprocal link with them as well ...!!! So here's the Hitch.... Probly 5 out of 10 of these different Sites and pages who have my biggest Competitors listing right there in full view, have NO way of reaching anybody....! There is no, add a link, Submit Site, add resource, No Email, No Nothing anywhere...!!!!!!!!! Just a Page full of my Competitors links and nothing else, with no way of contacting anybody...!!! Also I might add that I am only usually pursuing very similar themes such as mine which is ( Candy)..! .......So the Question is ...... #1 How are they getting all of these Links Pointing to them from all these other Sites, when they don't have ANY ( to best of my knowledge ) link directory of their own pointing back to any of the other sites giving a reciprocal link back...??? And #2.... How are they getting all of their links onto these other pages ( the same ones that I would like to get mine on ) .... When their isn't ANY way to contact anybody, in any way, shape, or form...???

What Id like to know is HOW the F ..........lip they doing this....????? And believe me, its not like they are MicroSoft or IBM, or General Electric and the like where everybody and their Dog is going to be linking to them anyways.....!!!!! Nope... there justa Regular `O site just like mine..... matter of fact IMHO my site is actually quite a bit better than there's..!!!

So what gives here ........ Anybody know something that I don't...???? Cause however they manage to do it......... Id sure like to be doing the same thing.!!!!

Thanks in Advance for any feedback here.....!!!!!!

Village Idiot ......

 

Brett_Tabke




msg:421142
 12:23 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

They own all the sites you are looking at. Very common for site farms in the 1-2k domain area. Start comparing whois info (name, adr, host, dns, etc...)

Village Idiot




msg:421143
 12:46 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hmmmmmmmmm well...please excuse my Idiosy here, but I thought a link farm was something like "linkstoyou" sort of b/s...?? These arent like those... And some of these pages that Im refering to have ALLOT of our OTHER Competitors listed on these same pages as well...!!!! Im wondering the hows and whys of their being on their now.... Hmmmm,
well, hell all I want to know is how to get into some of these myself, how are the Others getting in...??? Oh Boy, I know Im begining to go round and round in circles with all this again..... Same thing Ive been doing concerning this subject for months now... and also Im not sure what you mean by --->>> 1-2k domain area.

Again Sorry for the Idiousy here, but after all, I am the Village Idiot...!!!

lawman




msg:421144
 1:18 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)


Silence Village Idiot.

HeHe, I heard that in a movie once and have been hoping for a chance to use it. ;)

Lawman

brotherhood of LAN




msg:421145
 1:31 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

lol lawman

villageidiot, there is a recent topic about spam you might want to look at, just to get an idea of the frame of mind of some people who like to abuse the net to their gain

Im not saying your competitor is spamming but is is a POSSIBILITY. They may be setting up links page solely for the purpose of increasing link popularity to their site.

Well, some people are going to jump on me for saying such a thing without proof. I guess you have to ask yourself the motive of the person who made these sites with all the links pointing to the competitors site

Just a little guess on the side here......i assume that both of you are relatively small businesses? if this is the case, and all the links pages are on free sites, you could deduce that the competitor has made them up all himself purely for his gain.

either way, in regards to link pop, i use www.marketleap.com/publinkpop

its a good tool for link pop just to check out whats going on

Village Idiot




msg:421146
 1:49 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

Its just that Id really like to know how Webmasters such as Brett and others know how to do all these kinds of things, as well as Obviously does the Webmaster of my Biggest Competitor whom I have been talking bout..1 year ago bout the ONLY thing I thought Computers were used for was to figure out Complicated Math formulas.... I didnt even know how to turn one on, then..! So now I see my Competitors Webmaster running circles around me, and now I want to know ( find out) What/ How he`s doing it cause I NEED to be doing the same thing..!!! I either need to learn it, or bring in Somebody WHO DOES.!!! Id really like to get someones Opinion how they think I did for making my first website, I did it all myself from Scratch, just dicking round with it, the graphics, the whole bit...I dunno, its Ok I guess....Id put down the Address but Im not sure if its cool if I do that or not... but I would like somebody to take a look anyhow.!
If anybodys interested I`ll tell them then..
We have TREMENDOUS Potential... I came up with the Concept bout 1 year ago... Totally Niche Market.... But I NEED to learn or find somebody out there that might want to Partner up with me and my Partner from Australia... Somebody that can make this new business....kick butt..!!! Sorry to be going on, and I`ll probly be in trouble for the Rambling here but, I had tell you all that knows where Im coming from... Ok I`ll Stop now..!

Thanks for hearing me Ramble on a little bit here... I promise not to do it again..!!!

Village Idiot....

paynt




msg:421147
 1:50 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

Check your sticky.

I get your dilemma. I understand your need for help here and direction. Whatís terrific about Webmaster World is, given the patience it takes to read up on the individual forums, the time it takes to utilize the site search option above and then read up on the topic you are searching for, not to mention posting questions and waiting for the responses to follow, if you stick with it youíll find the best the world has to offer responding to you. And, itís all free.

So. I suggest you make a list of what you need, in terms of information. Then, I suggest you use the site search to find whatís already been written. If you need more information or further explanation, post your question in the appropriate discussion. If you have a specific question that hasnít been addressed by all means start a new discussion.

With regards to this specific issue itís all about research and how you analyze the information you gather. When competing itís good to go to your competitor and try to get the same links they have, at least if the links PR is good, but itís also good to go out and find your own. Create a site that folks will be coming to you to get links and not you begging links from someone else.

I would be looking at my competitor for not only what links they have that I may want as well but I would look at it as what I can I offer thatís better. You have to build a better mousetrap.

Marcia




msg:421148
 4:55 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

Village there is a difference between a link farm and a "domain farm." A lot of the latter are out there to be found, with a lot of fluff sites in their network which serve only to boost the link popularity of the ones that bring them income. They're out there to be found; one company alone that I've seen has over 10,000 domains. They're found quite by accident and it's very common in a certain sector.

The downside is that their longevity is questionable. Most of the links I've seen on the worst of them are not valid and they'll all go down at the same time. It won't last forever, then something new will come along and work until it's overplayed. The best way is with solid principles and techniques, keeping in mind what to avoid. It may take longer, but is safer in the long run.

Brett_Tabke




msg:421149
 5:03 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

What I was asking was not about link farms Village, but about site/domain farms. I was suggesting that all those sites and all those links you are seeing, are owned by the same company. This is not uncommon. One of my prime competitors that I've been at war with for a client for 4 years, has over 3000 domains. You bet he has them all pumped up with links back and forth. Once he finds someone that likes to recip swap, he starts going down his domain list and swapping links from other domains of his using different email addresses. Most often, he pumps himself up in the emails, "I got your name from Bill over at the super site, want to swap links...". The guy he swaps with, thinks he's hit the motherlode.

Not uncommon in some categories.

It's why se's were so hot on building Web Maps. They can generate local visual web maps and look for linking anomolies. If they find a cluster of 1000domains heavily interlinked to one another and not much going back out into the web - ah ha - they can do all the damage to them they want.

As I said, start looking at whois information for those domains that look like they were template built with near the same look and feel. Not identicle, but just near the same.

[searchengineworld.com...]

Salesmaster II




msg:421150
 10:12 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

Village Idiot - Fear Not!

Six months ago, I was wondering the same, yet already I am getting top position hits for my favourite keywords with only half a dozen link backs (most of which are mine?).

Listen to the words of wisdom from these guys, mainly:
1) Focus on good content.
2) Check Bretts "Theme-Pyramid".

Good news is around the corner. I am still merely a novice, but again, I believe the wind of change will blow for newbies.

I am not promoting my sites for link backs yet, as I do not want to generate to much traffic until the site is really together, yet because of this technology, already I am out-ranking many of my "Heroes" is salesmanship.

The very good news is this:

Recently whilst surfing my competitors, I noticed pages of unrelated links, which is obviously one of the "Link-farm" type projects spoken of above. Thes appear to be massive lists of varying nature.

I also wondered how SEO's are able to promise their clients top page hits in 7 days, when I know the complexity it took to build my site.

The bottom line is this: These companies take your money and link their hundreds of other sites at you, many of which are unrelated to your product. It only takes them a minute. And obviously has fared well for them.

The good news is this: Search Engines (Google Leading the way) are trying to generate RELATIVE search info, therefore, these hundreds of UN-related links, will not favour as they have with other search engines in the past.

Therefore, these SEO's with massive link lists, will be bypassed in time by site owners with genuine links and GOOD content.

Use Bretts pyramid theme, create half a dozen link-backs to yourself from your subsites(each carrying main keyword + individual subsite site specific keywords.

Then focus on quality content for each of those subsites(all relative to topic of main site).

Last month, I knew I needed to find how to write for Google (who I did not understand), then realised they had already found me, and ranked me position 16(page2) for my favourite expression: "Salesmanship tips". At the time, I only had 1 link back, and had done nothing to deserve this other than having "Quality Relative Content".

Village- "Fear Not" - Build a Quality site, and when the wind of change blows these large "spam-link-lists" out of the window for "irelavant-links", then you shall be lifted up!

Soon, many of these Masters SEO's will suddenly find their lists wont work, then they will have to start again. This is where you have the head start; They dont now this yet.

Stay focused, Build a quality site, make your sub-folders into subsites linking back to your main. This will win the day!

Mike_Mackin




msg:421151
 10:55 am on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

NETWORKING

In many "very competitive" industries there are annual / semi-annual conferences.
Side deals are made [person to person] for links between "what appear to be" competitors.
They are competitors but they understand the value of coming together for a common goal.
This makes what may appear to be several domain farms [using whois] actually and much LARGER domain farm. 50,000 is the largest that I know of controlled by 2 guys.

It's all about traffic.

Village Idiot




msg:421152
 3:22 pm on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hello EVERYBODY..

I Just wanted to thank you all for the Positive and helpful feedback givin to me.!
You ALL have been VERY Helpful, and your wisdom and advise is Profoundly Appreciated.!!!! :o)

Brett_Tabke
lawman
brotherhood of LAN
paynt
Marcia
Salesmaster II
Mike_Mackin

Once Again, thank you all VERY much for all your help...!!!!

I`ll be back..!!!

Village Idiot.....

tilt




msg:421153
 6:09 pm on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

Village -
Don't worry too much about being a novice on technical issues. You are an expert in your domain and that's what your website is about. Therefor, focus on content, not technical tricks.

Don't worry too much, initially, about getting 100's of cheap incoming links. Instead, try to get some quality *outgoing* links. I think you mentioned candy in your post. If your site is about candy, then write some content about sugar, or nuts, or something that is peripherally related. Then search the web until you find a really interesting site about sugar or nuts. Then link to that site. Ideally, your outgoing link should be an integral part of some interesting content on your site, not just part of a huge list of links. Eventually, quality outgoing links will bring traffic to your site.

brotherhood of LAN




msg:421154
 8:09 pm on Feb 7, 2002 (gmt 0)

Tilt, thats about the best advice ive heard from anyone on here. Its probably the best 'trick' to get the visitors in. Content is king so they say.

Its more understandable the longer you work on your web site. First, you started on the homepage, essentially the core thinking of your site

From then on, your are producing more content related to that page, and pages related to these pages and so on.

Such is the case with my site, a biology site, which has countless issues that can be written about, and are needed by people who have online access

I switched from a free host and domain to a top level domain and had the ability to use databases and scripts

The extra tools I have to be harnessed on the server has meant that my link popularity increases by about 50% every month. This is from the following

1. About once a month I surf similar sites to mine, by looking up Google under "biology" and referencing my site to the webmaster. If they reply, and think a link would be suitable to my site, they get the opportunity of a reciprocal link if they ask for one, and I add it to my links search engine for biology related sites

2. The other links will come from other webmasters with "biology web sites" who feel my site would be an addition to the links they offer....

....So more content = more people referencing your content on the net. Moreover, since about 65% of people coming to your site are from search engines, more content means more listing on the engines

Like I say, my site looks at biology. I understand many webmasters on the forum offer more than informational content, but also sell products in their site. IMO this is what makes spam such as an issue (just look at all the other posts in the other forums) because of all the crude methods used to get "the eyeballs" looking at their product. Since I dont sell products I cant say much. Ive always thought paid listings on the smaller PPC search engines would be worth it because of the cheap keywords

well thats my $0.02 worth, all in all, working on your site can only be a good thing, keep working on it then the search engines will reward you later (and more links to your site). You cant control your competitors, either start doing what they do or do something better :P

webster2001




msg:421155
 6:25 pm on Feb 8, 2002 (gmt 0)

This reply is from reading the first few posts up top....

Links2you and all of those other so called link boosting services aren't very good village idiot. Actually SE's like google and others penalize your site's ranking for using them. So in a nut shell I would advise to ditch the link lists.

Think about all the time you can spend making up pages and pages of useless links all for the purpose of linking to another page to boost your link popularity. Yahoo won't list those pages. Not to mention unless your a domain registry your going to be paying at least 8.88 per year for each domain. Then again buying in volume would be cheaper.

I think your best bet and this is what I do for my sites is to visit your "competitors" sites, (i like to refer to them as "fellow webmasters") remember we're all in this together. A good solid reciprocal link from another webmaster's site top's a link list in my book any day.

Remember 90% of the world's wealth is obtained by the top 1%. Instead of running around in circles from site to site get in touch with the big cheese. Don't try to make lemonade without having the lemons first. :-)


Village Idiot




msg:421156
 11:15 pm on Feb 8, 2002 (gmt 0)

Yepp I couldnt agree more Webster, thats EXACTLEY what I did, I gave the linkty dink mumbo jumbo club the shanke, and now I fixxen to do bout the same thing with some of my more off topic links as well..!!!

Thanks for the Advise, guys...!!!!!!!

Village Idiot....

charliek




msg:421157
 4:11 pm on Feb 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi,

The above discussion has certainly made things a bit clearer to me but what happens when a site is listed as linking to another site, but the link is nowere to be found on the page. When I do a search for "search engine optimisation" on google, the first site is [url clipped], which has 3,790 links to it. Understandable then that it would be first in the results page. However, I checked some of the links listed to the site, and can't find links on the page. For example, this is the first link listed, and it is a site related to forests and nature. Why would it link to a search engine company?
[url clipped]

Just wondering what could be happening here???

(edited by: paynt at 4:30 pm (utc) on Feb. 26, 2002)

paynt




msg:421158
 4:37 pm on Feb 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hey charliek,

Thanks for the post. I think what you may be seeing is one of this optimization company's clients has linked back to them. This often happens with optimization, marketing and web design companies. You get unrelated sites linking to you because they like what you do and want to let others know.

It's nice if they are linking to you if you can get the right keywords in the anchor text ;)

charliek




msg:421159
 4:57 pm on Feb 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi,

Sorry about posting the URL's. didn't realise it wasn't allowed!

But the problem is that when you go to the page which is supposedly linking back to the SEO company site, there's no physical link there. I've checked the page again just to make sure but all the links are related to forestry. could it be an invisible link? I've checked the source code and done a search and there's no sign of a link. Maybe the link isn't there anymore, and Google hasn't logged this yet. But there are other dodgy sites, a lot of which look the same that are linking to it too.

Anyway, I've emailed Google to report it so we'll see what they say.

Thanks anyway!

brotherhood of LAN




msg:421160
 5:18 pm on Feb 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

Just a suggestion charliek but

are you looking for "related" sites in Google? You might want to type link:www.domain.com, because the related option is different

charliek




msg:421161
 5:21 pm on Feb 26, 2002 (gmt 0)


Wow! Just came across a doorway page they did for one of their clients - It has about 10 invisible links back to the client site and 2 invisible links back to their own site. So if they did this on all the doorway pages they've done for their clients, of course they'd have 3000 links back to their site!

Now I've just had my boss onto me about why we aren't getting results like this etc etc and am feeling a bit disillusioned. We have always been an upfront company, never using dodgy techniques and always praising the benefits of how we do SEO i.e. getting long term results. But whats the point if there are ALWAYS going to be people who do this sort of thing. Bottom line, most companies we deal with dont know enough about sEO to know it takes time and that this is for the best. They want instant results, even if they don't realise that these don't last. I'm tired trying to educate people/clients/my boss ;-(

Apologies for the rant!! Just having a bad day...

charliek




msg:421162
 5:26 pm on Feb 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

No, I was definitely looking at the links back. I have the google toolbar and use the Backward links button.

Brett_Tabke




msg:421163
 9:52 am on Mar 6, 2002 (gmt 0)

Not all links will show in the Google linkback function. The conditions under which that happens are open for debate. A few thought it was via directory depth, but now we are so sure. We assume the Google db is bloated and in order to free space, they aren't carrying over all links that meet some criteria. You still get the count, just that they don't keep them laying around in lists like they used to.

skibum




msg:421164
 4:39 am on Mar 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

I've stumbled upon massive domain networks many times. Back in the day, ti was merely 1x1 gi's that linked em' all together. As Google ups the ante and makes it moe challening to avoid the spam filters, the networks simply get more and more complex, look more professional and often, to the average surfer look "normal". Get 5 or 10 big industrial clients or one client with a large number of somewhat related divisions that will spend 500k+ on SEO and the possibilities for fabricated directories are almost endless.

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