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Link Development Forum

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Link Development Post Toolbar PR
What Metrics Would be Useful for Link Dev Purposes?
McMohan




msg:411627
 7:52 am on May 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Well, as we had experienced once when Google trivialized their backlink command, days aren't many before we see the end of TBPR. One may argue that TBPR is done with already anyway, until we see the end of that little greenbar, there will be many takers for it. The link development process will be the single most affected area with the absence TBPR.

"What if" Google were to pull down that greenbar from its toolbar?

1. The whole text link ad industry will come to almost a standstill.
2. Knowing if a site/page is indexed in Google will take a little longer.
3. Knowing the importance of an individual site/page will be more difficult if not impossible.
4. Knowing if a site is penalized will be difficult (Kind of a site that has hundreds of IBLs, but is a PR0)

In the absence of TBPR, how can one go about measuring the importance of a page? [Relevancy being a common denominator]

My list would include these, in order of importance -

a. Alexa Rank (With all its anomalies)
b. SERPs that the site/page enjoys for its target keyword/s.
c. Quality IBLs if any (such as dmoz)

I am sure there are many other metrics, but will be difficult to measure for each new potential link.

Now, please add, debate, ridicule... :)

 

wheel




msg:411628
 3:32 pm on May 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

I blush to admit that I still use PR - but as a telltale. If a site has pr0, I don't spend a lot of time on it. If it has a pr4+, I'll check the backlinks. In this case the pr simply tells me if the site has something in the way of backlinks. If the backlinks are garbage, I move on. If the backlinks giving the site good PR are all solid, I'll look into the site. And I always look for relevance.

In short, I don't dispute that pr is a poor measure. But it is a good measure of the amount of backlinks a site has. And if it has a lot of quality backlinks, then it's well integrated into the fabric of the web, and a place I want to get a link from.

I'm also not certain that text link companies are dead if toolbar pr is withdrawn. People still want links don't they?

McMohan




msg:411629
 6:13 pm on May 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

wheel no denial. With all its drawbacks people still look at that greenbar and I don't even blush to admit that I am one among such :) But we have to prepare ourselves to get along with things just as usual in the absence of TBPR and that is easier said than done.
The TBPR should ideally be replaced by one or more metrics that determine the value of a page and the associated benefits by getting linked.

I'm also not certain that text link companies are dead if toolbar pr is withdrawn. People still want links don't they?

Without TBPR, text link companies will be like grocery merchants without a weighing scale.

Philosopher




msg:411630
 6:24 pm on May 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

While G may indeed eventually do away with TBPR, I don't see it anytime soon.

Without the TBPR, toolbar users have no reason to opt for the advanced features which allow the toolbar to "call home". This "call home" is a HUGE advantage to Google because it allows G to collect a HUGE amount of user data.

It helps them find new pages to spider
it helps them track user behavior after clicking on a link in SERPS
Identify affiliated sites
Identify page popularity regardless where the visitor arrives to the page from
and on and on and on

There is no real incentive for them to remove the TBPR indicator because no one will allow the toolbar to phone home if they are not getting something of perceived value back.

Displaying TBPR costs Google nothing (even it it has no real value now), gives them a certain bit of control, and gives them access to vast amounts of user data.

rover




msg:411631
 6:47 pm on May 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

Identify affiliated sites

How does the google toolbar do this?

oddsod




msg:411632
 6:56 pm on May 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

This "call home" is a HUGE advantage to Google

Is? Was? Google Accelerator [webmasterworld.com]. No more need for toolbar? Maybe the end really is nigh.

ken_b




msg:411633
 7:05 pm on May 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

a. Alexa Rank (With all its anomalies)
b. SERPs that the site/page enjoys for its target keyword/s.
c. Quality IBLs if any (such as dmoz)

I'd consider who else the site links to, and who those sites link to.

More work, yes, important, could be.

McMohan




msg:411634
 5:42 am on May 6, 2005 (gmt 0)

This "call home" is a HUGE advantage to Google because it allows G to collect a HUGE amount of user data

But what % of people install a toolbar, leave alone with advanced features? The lack of it can easily be compensated by other initiatives such as "Search History", "Google Accelerator". They are already a domain registrar which will help them in establishing affiliation. They may even become a low cost web hosting provider too, giving them a lot of data.

I'd consider who else the site links to, and who those sites link to

Interesting suggestion. But aren't you doing that anyway if there is a TBPR or not?

Lorel




msg:411635
 2:31 pm on May 8, 2005 (gmt 0)


But what % of people install a toolbar,

You can leave out all Mac users.

McMohan




msg:411636
 1:28 pm on May 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

You can leave out all Mac users

Anyone who use Mac or haven't installed the TB, can share with us how they go about getting links?

jd01




msg:411637
 5:29 am on May 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

I use a Mac and usually just ask for links... Sometimes I get 'em, sometimes I don't.

PR does show on a Mac though... Firefox has two (or three) installs. and, we from the 'other side' have widgets too =). At least one is recommended by Google and I have XP for Mac (yes, it's just like windows on a PC, I can run and crash anything a 'real PC' can) so about once a week I double check for accuracy. Haven't seen any difference yet.

Justin

angiolo




msg:411638
 7:41 am on May 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

Another tool is having a look at the Yahoo Directory: -> Directory search results are sites from the Yahoo! Directory and are ranked by algorithm.

martinibuster




msg:411639
 9:41 am on May 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

As someone mentioned in stundubl's thread in Supporters, Google directory still shows PR ranking, however in the link dev scenario, not every site is in DMOZ, so we'll still have to do some basic quality checks.

Many people will know all this, but maybe some don't so I'm going to lay this down for those who may find it helpful:

  • The first check is to verify if the potential link partner is banned. So you go to Google and query the domain name, domain-name.com or www.domain-name.com and if the answer is "Sorry, no information is available for the URL domain-name.com" then you've got a problem site. Back away.

  • If it passes the first test then go to Yahoo and do a backlink check. Check out who is linking to it, and how many are linking to it. Quantity is going to be one signal of quality.

  • Do a whois search and check out what country it's regged in, when it was regged, who it's regged to, and in some systems you can even see all the other websites sitting on the server or else determine if the site is on a dedicated ip. Also, some systems allow you to check the ownership history going back several years, which is good for smoking out an expired domain, but otherwise you'll have to go to the next step.

  • Archive.org history search. This is a good way to check if the site in question is an expired domain.

There are probably loads more checks you can do. Anyone else care to add?

McMohan




msg:411640
 9:53 am on May 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

There can be many a factors to look at while determining potential link partners, but in the absence of TBPR, we need a system that can determine the quality in least time, particularly when we need links in loads for competitive industries.

I would put my money on developing a Toolbar which gives near indication of the existing Google TBPR. Make no mistake :)

martinibuster




msg:411641
 6:16 pm on May 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

I would put my money on developing a Toolbar which gives near indication of the existing Google TBPR.

The way to do it is to take the criteria I have listed above and have a program automatically query it.

But I'm not sure I would trust a toolbar that would query whois for me then algorithmically score the ownership information on a 1-10 basis then fold that into the score for backlinks etc... and generate a number from one to ten. This kind of information I would like to view for myself.

One way to automate the process is to take the criteria I listed then generate the results in a one page report.

But more importantly, does anyone have additional criteria to add? I'm looking for metrics. There are others metrics for judging a link partner that I have left out. So let's have them!

PatrickDeese




msg:411642
 6:24 pm on May 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

> additional criteria to add

I always check if the site is cached in all the major SEs, and if the page my link will be on is as well.

Also I would check for a robots.txt banning the link exchange pages, rel=nofollow tags and other tricks.

See also: The Dark Side of Exchanging Reciprocal Links [webmasterworld.com]

McMohan




msg:411643
 6:56 pm on May 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

But I'm not sure I would trust a toolbar that would query whois for me then algorithmically score the ownership information on a 1-10 basis then fold that into the score for backlinks etc

Right. Can get the tool to display only which is quantifiable. May be have a toolbar that gives the importance of a page out of quatifiable metrics and then have an add-on feature "Know More", which lists the important factors that one would like to know about, such as -

- Whois
- No. of sites hosted on the server
- Where the server is located? (May be useful for travel and real estate sectors?)
- www.domainname.tld search result in Google.
- The Wayback Machine snapshot
- No. of IBLs, classified by domain TLDs
- Mention of links from Dmoz/Yahoo
- Ratio of links to inside page v/s index page
- Alexa Rank
- robots.txt, <META NAME="robots", rel=nofollow status.
- Page size

where the toolbar pr is for a quick look at the importance before deciding to dig deeper and for link monkeys. "Know More" feature for advanced info.

If I were the developer of this tool, I would have one unique feature in it. I would create a feature which allows you to match your site and the potential link page w.r.t content and IBLs and come out with a numerical value that gives an estimation of relevancy. A 50%, 40%, 90% match kinda detail.

ken_b




msg:411644
 7:15 pm on May 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'd consider who else the site links to, and who those sites link to

Interesting suggestion. But aren't you doing that anyway if there is a TBPR or not?

Yes I am doing that, and I don't bother with the TBPR when deciding if I'll post a link or not.

It usually isn't that time consuming, but then I'm not posting a bunch of new links everyday.

But you can bet that a lot of webmasters aren't doing this sort of checking at all. I think that's probably not in their own best interest if they aretrying to build a site for the long term.

jd01




msg:411645
 8:49 pm on May 28, 2005 (gmt 0)

- No. of sites hosted on the server

Don't know if it can be automated, but I would add:

- Number of sites hosted on the IP address
- Number of sites interlinking on the IP address
- Number of sites with the same ownership on the IP address
Added: - Number of sites in the same niche on the IP address

Justin

martinibuster




msg:411646
 1:27 am on May 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

Number of sites in the same niche on the IP address

That's a good one and easy to overlook, thanks for bringing that up.

willybfriendly




msg:411647
 1:50 am on May 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

In the absence of TBPR, how can one go about measuring the importance of a page? [Relevancy being a common denominator]

My list would include these, in order of importance -

a. Alexa Rank (With all its anomalies)
b. SERPs that the site/page enjoys for its target keyword/s.
c. Quality IBLs if any (such as dmoz)

Uh...traffic?

Yep, that's it. Before that little green bar we thought about the potential for traffic. All things being equal, I still want a link that brings n traffic. Few links pages do that, at least in my niche.

Using Opera, I have not looked at the G Toolbar in quite some time. This has not impeded my efforts to improve my rankings.

WBF

McMohan




msg:411648
 3:58 am on May 29, 2005 (gmt 0)

In the absence of TBPR, how can one go about measuring the importance of a page? [Relevancy being a common denominator]
My list would include these, in order of importance -

a. Alexa Rank (With all its anomalies)
b. SERPs that the site/page enjoys for its target keyword/s.
c. Quality IBLs if any (such as dmoz)

Uh...traffic?

Alexa. How would you otherwise know the traffic potential of a link?, I mean quickly.

glengara




msg:411649
 8:13 pm on May 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

"Similar Pages" is your friend ;-)

I'm a Mac user, and find the SP results a pretty good indication of a site's linkage from a thematic POV.

If most are on topic, that's pretty good indication they're not "messing about" in linkage schemes.

If you get no results, something, somewhere, is wrong.

VikasMosaic




msg:411650
 1:30 pm on May 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

I am thinking if google has performed last rites for toolbar PR then we will have to look at alternate means of link evaluation for link building.

The question is how would you evaluate the value of the link now.

Suppose a site links to you from 7th page of their link directory. Is it of any use if you cannot see the PR.

I think that the focus of link building will shift from page based linking to site based linking.

We will now not be able to evaluate the page that the link exists on but the site on which the link exists.

Some of the measure to evaluate a SITE BASED LINK ( SBL) are:

1) Backlinks to the site as reported by google, yahoo, MSN.
2) Alexa rank
3) Presence in DMOZ or yahoo directory
4) Presence of linking page in SE cache( only page related factor)
5) Theme based
6) Age of the domain ( whois database)

Any others that can be thought of?

angiolo




msg:411651
 2:06 pm on May 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

If the site is listed in yahoo directory I would have a look at the Yahoo site listings "By Popularity".

Since PR is based on links, any site that has a tools for "link popularity check" is useful, specially if you can get a link popularity history/trend report.

I noticed a correlation between Page rank and the link popularity trend.

glengara




msg:411652
 2:17 pm on May 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Suppose a site links to you from 7th page of their link directory*

To be honest I wouldn't need to know the page PR to get a pretty good idea of its value ;-)

ken_b




msg:411653
 2:47 pm on May 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

You could always run some related searchs. The pages that come up in those searches are the prime candidates.

If those pages don't have outbound links on them, check to see if the page promotes a resource/links/directory page/section on the site.

If it does, check those additional pages/sections out.

It's might also be wise to remember that the highest ranking, highest traffic page might not send the best clicks.

A more focused paged, further into the directory, might send much more qualified traffic. There may not be as much traffic, but it might convert much better.

PatrickDeese




msg:411654
 3:12 pm on May 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

There are some good ideas in this thread: [webmasterworld.com...]

pageoneresults




msg:411655
 3:18 pm on May 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

The question is how would you evaluate the value of the link now.

The same way I always have. If the site is relevant to my target audience and it is possible that it will bring just one quality lead, then the link has value.

volatilegx




msg:411656
 3:19 am on May 31, 2005 (gmt 0)

Link History: a "fingerprint" of the history of when incoming links were garnered. Sort of a timeline.

This 31 message thread spans 2 pages: 31 ( [1] 2 > >
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