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Opera 7.5 now available
photon




msg:1585327
 2:06 pm on May 12, 2004 (gmt 0)

7.5 final is now out of beta.

 

ronin




msg:1585357
 9:12 pm on May 13, 2004 (gmt 0)

Opera identifies itself as MSIE 6.0? Why?.. It is kind of evil, don't you think?

You might want to read this article by John Lettice from The Register from February, last year:

[theregister.co.uk ]

I found Opera 7.23 a big improvement on previous incarnations of Opera... I really want to like it, but I just don't feel as comfortable with it as I do with Firefox... anyway, I'll download this one and check it out.

Brett_Tabke




msg:1585358
 9:15 pm on May 13, 2004 (gmt 0)

> fails to render some advanced css
> I have that mozilla/ie renders fine,

Well, considering the author of CSS works for Opera, I'd say it is probably the other way around. Tis rare that ie or moz are not wrong on css. There are 10fold the number of true css bugs in ie/nn than Opera.

>tabbed browsing

Opera is MDI. Much better imho and allows total control of that in every aspect. (you can do either one or both).

> web developer toolbar..

How about a webmasterworld menu? Or a menu of "anything" you want. ;-) Custom menus are awesome.

Custom Keyboard is even more awesome.

> full mousemovement extensions,

Sounds like Operas INI mouse files.

> Is it as fast as Opera

On my older laptop (400p3) - moz is hardly usable it is so slow (takes 30 seconds just to load). Not tried "fox", but there is no comparison in real world speed. Moz is a dog slow beast.

The versions of Firefox I have tried were just too incompatible that I couldn't use it for long.

Most times I think peoples reaction to a browser is all on that first 1-2 sites of their favs they happen to visit.

--
One other thing I forgot - was the multiple clip board notes...

Striping css and images on-the-fly from the kb - awesome. No more first year css programmers to deal with.

isitreal




msg:1585359
 9:26 pm on May 13, 2004 (gmt 0)

On my older laptop (400p3) - moz is hardly usable it is so slow (takes 30 seconds just to load). Not tried "fox", but there is no comparison in real world speed. Moz is a dog slow beast.

this is absolutely true, the first moz's were complete garbage when it came to loading and rendering times on slower pc's, I ran them on 200 megaherz laptop and it was painful, but the code base has been slashed, it's about 6+ megabytes, much faster, though not as fast as opera, I installed opera 7 on a 133mghz windows 95 box and it ran really well. I didn't switch to mozilla until the phoenix/firebird/firefox series came out, and those were much better css rendering than Opera 6, still are better in that regard than opera 7 in my opinion. I have no bugs to speak of in gecko, bugs in IE and Opera and Safari and IE mac.

Coding wise there is no doubt that opera takes the speed edge, I'd never deny that, but just because hakon helps make the css standards doesn't mean that opera is able to implement them perfectly, Opera 6 didn't support position bottom correctly, if at all, or overflow:auto at all, and didn't allow dynamic rewriting of the page.

Opera needs to be small for the handhelds, that's their main market, so I think they have to sacrifice some css support to keep the rendering engine small enough, the new bug I found is very serious, it completely ruins the look of my page, that displays perfectly in all other browsers.

But that's what's great about having real options to browsers, if you like the features opera gives you, there it is, if you like the new firefox and their extensions, which are more on the geek end of things, no problem.

Most times I think peoples reaction to a browser is all on that first 1-2 sites of their favs they happen to visit.

the sites I test my browsers on are made to test css, zero error, so when I see a bug I know it's a bug, and Opera 7.5 has a pretty serious display bug that wasn't there in 7.23, I know at least a few gecko alpha testers do the same, since I see the gecko alphas and betas in my stats long before they are publically announced.

ephka




msg:1585360
 9:35 pm on May 13, 2004 (gmt 0)

re: opera stats, if you're using Analog5 you are getting the real stats, I tested that thoroughly, every opera visit using every user agent setting was correctly id'ed as opera, from opera 4 to 7.23. So that 0.25-1% you're seeing is real.

You're right, it's still identifiable as Opera, here's what the user-agent string looks like with the default installation of Opera 7.50:
"Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1) Opera 7.50 [en]"

Evil sites requiring MSIE think it's what they want, and Analog understands that this is Opera. So Opera's browser market share really is around 1.5%, judging from my stats source.

Clark




msg:1585361
 11:26 pm on May 13, 2004 (gmt 0)

How does their email compare to the other email clients out there?

Clark




msg:1585362
 1:52 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

I installed it. Using it now. Opera is a beautiful thing. The only thing missing is Google toolbar. And since their toolbars are so good, it isn't a huge loss.

bill




msg:1585363
 2:04 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

> web developer toolbar..

Opera has had the same for quite a while now...check out the Customize [my.opera.com] section on the Opera Communities site.

> Opera needs to be small for the handhelds, that's their main market, so I think they have to sacrifice some css support to keep the rendering engine small enough

I think you're just making stuff up now...

The big question now then is: When will Nick_W update the WebmasterWorld Opera Companion [webmasterworld.com] for 7.5?

vkaryl




msg:1585364
 2:08 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Been using it.... still don't like it. Firefox for me, thanks.

isitreal




msg:1585365
 3:09 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

It is loosely based on the Web Developer toolbar for Mozilla, and integrates parts of Toby's W3-dev Menu

guess Mozilla had it first, good to see that Opera has it too now, nice to see non IE browsers working to improve each other's strong points.

I'm not quite clear on why you don't think Opera's primary market isn't handheld devices, that's always been their primary market, their browser is and has been amazingly small, like the Safari rendering engine, but that small size makes some sacrifices, and always has since version 5, the first useable version. Safari and Opera 7 have very similar rendering failures from what I've seen. Opera's main requirement has always been for it to be able to run without any modifications as a handheld browser as I understand it, unlike the windows ce IE, which is a sort of poor cousin of the real IE I guess.

It's just a matter of taste I guess, I tried to like Opera 5 but it was way too buggy, I tried to like Opera 6 but it was way too buggy, bad Dom support, Opera 7 is much improved, but buggier than Gecko from my experience, but you'll find that more at the edges of CSS use, redoing the rendering engine was a very good idea, but nothing about it has ever really grabbed me, but that's a matter of taste I guess, most threads I've ever read on this forum agree: develop on gecko, debug on the rest, and that's been my experience as well.

PhraSEOlogy




msg:1585366
 4:31 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

All I know is that it might be good for me to use as a personal browser, for whaterver reason - but only 0.4 % of my visitors use it. So it aint gonna get any special attention from me.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why I may be wrong?

ronin




msg:1585367
 4:32 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Not bad. Not bad at all.
Nicely improved from v7.23

I'm even contemplating switching over from Firefox...

bakedjake




msg:1585368
 5:57 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

The deal on Opera is that there just aren't any valid criticisms left.

As a jubliant Opera user, I have one:

The spell checker doesn't work on FreeBSD.

troels nybo nielsen




msg:1585369
 5:59 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

> How does their email compare to the other email clients out there?

I have had huge problems with it. But of course those problems may very well be my personal ones:

1. Not sure which version no. but I think it was 7.23 that suddenly could not see the content in my email accounts at my hosting company. I changed to the email client of Mozilla and it has no problems.

2. I strongly dislike their pseudo-intuitive user interface and never learned to use it well. Same old story. In real life my intuition does anything that I could reasonably want from it, but give me the choice between a programmer's logical and "intuitive" interfaces and I will choose the logical one anytime without a split second of hesitation.

Sinner_G




msg:1585370
 6:27 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

The big question now then is: When will Nick_W update the WebmasterWorld Opera Companion for 7.5?

I installed 7.5 in the same folder as the previous version, so it took over the menu which works fine.

I'm having a bit of trouble with this new Opera version, though, when trying to reload a page with CTRL+R. No problem when using the menu or the icon in the main bar. And it's happening just on one page (using an iframe, maybe the problem is there somewhere). Still, it used to work in the previous versions, now it often crashes Opera.

dwhite




msg:1585371
 7:30 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

One of things I love about Opera is how configurable its interface is. For example, Explorer could learn a thing or two from the way Opera allows buttons to be easily dropped onto toolbars.

About the only feature I'd still love to see is a way to save a batch of documents (web pages) so I can view them at a later time (and all the tabs would reappear upon loading).

I'm not keen on the new google ads, and prefer the graphical ones, but this new release is seriously tempting me just to buy it and be done with all the ads completely.

It's surprising how similar you can get it to look like Opera 7.2. Simply select View > Toolbars > Main bar, and the advert goes over to the right like it was in 7.2 (see a PNG shot here [skytopia.com]). Thankfully, 7.5 still allows you to use the Windows native skin. I don't know about you lot, but grey toolbars and buttons are a much nicer contrast against the (usually white) web page.

grandpa




msg:1585372
 8:01 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Well, I don't like it. It shows me just how incompatable my css is across different browsers. (It doesn't stand up to Opera)

I'm off to the CSS forum to try to find out where I went wrong ...and I had my heart set on doing some programming tonight.

It's got to one of the busiest browser screens I've looked at. All I want is an address bar and maybe a toolbar of my choosing, and a screen full of web page. I know, I know, spend a few bucks and most of it will go away. Spend more than a few minutes with it and I might be less critical.

Like it or not, I suppose I better get my site looking right. More than likely a few of my customers *do* like Opera.

caine




msg:1585373
 8:16 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

courtesy of Brett and others here, i moved over to opera about 3 years ago from NN4.x, and have never looked back, its my core browser on both Windows and Linux, and its installed with Mozilla in every machine in my company.

bill




msg:1585374
 8:20 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

The big question now then is: When will Nick_W update the WebmasterWorld Opera Companion for 7.5?

I installed 7.5 in the same folder as the previous version, so it took over the menu which works fine.
I did a clean install, and the old menu kills the new Tools menu and a few others...I don't care about the Chat menu, but Tools has some important stuff in it ;)

I'd still love to see is a way to save a batch of documents (web pages) so I can view them at a later time
That ability has been there for some time...in 7.5 go to File Sessions
Save Session...
and it will save all the open tabs. Then just open the saved session you want and presto.

Hester




msg:1585375
 9:40 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Regarding CSS, this browser handles more than any other. (Eg: media queries, generated content, outlines.)

Regarding handhelds, Opera is probably the only browser company actually caring about this growing market. They have something called "Small Screen Rendering" that will adapt your page to a much smaller screen.

The Notes panel is genius. I've used it to prepare the following quotes!

RammsteinNicCage:
One minus for this version, like someone else said, the google ads were better in 7.23.

They appear the same to me. Only now you can reduce them to a smaller area.

isitreal:
(On Firefox) - Full mousemovement extensions, configurable navigator user agent strings, etc... that's just the extensions I've tried

Yes, extensions. To duplicate what Opera has, Firefox needs a huge list of extensions. I have heard that these aren't always compatible, leading to crashes. Plus they have to be downloaded, vastly upping the size of the browser. Now think: Opera has most of these extensions built-in yet it's still a 3Mb download! That's with a built-in newsreader, chat program and email client as well.

Brett_Tabke:
Striping css and images on-the-fly from the kb - awesome. No more first year css programmers to deal with.

What do you refer to there Brett?

isitreal:
the sites I test my browsers on are made to test css, zero error, so when I see a bug I know it's a bug

Think again. I've seen a test page that suggested a bug, but when I looked closely at the code, the page was wrong. Then it had to have an extra line of code added to be compliant with the way Opera handled something. Only then was it shown that the bug didn't exist.

Opera is ultra-strict with its implementation of CSS. What appears wrong (because it "works in Mozilla") may well be a wrong test page, or a change in the way Opera handles something.

For instance, they have changed the way the DOM (JavaScript) reads styles from a page! A new spec says the browser should return a hex value for colours, not the RGB format as before. I had to rewrite a demo I've made so it works in Opera 7.50. Apparently other browsers will follow the new spec later.

grandpa:
All I want is an address bar and maybe a toolbar of my choosing, and a screen full of web page

But this can be done by turning off unwanted toolbars and selecting only the buttons you want.

Conclusion

There's a ton of stuff in this browser. I am still finding new things it can do. Like putting a web page into a panel! Or filtering a list of bookmarks using the search field. (So typing "opera" only lists bookmarks to do with Opera.)

That's a favourite feature of mine. On the main browser window, I swap the Google search drop-down menu for "Find in page search". Then to find a word on a web page, just start typing in the word. Press ENTER to jump through repeated uses of the word. (I know Mozilla has a similar feature, but you need to use an extra key to activate it, and it can be confusing to use.)

Then how about keywords? Absolutely amazing. (Again, Mozilla has these, but as good?) Edit a bookmark and add a keyword. I have this forum set as "WebmasterWorld". So all I do to open the forum is type the keyword "WebmasterWorld" into the address bar! But where Opera shines is the fact you can also add a keyword to a folder. So it will open several bookmarks at once!

Like I said, there's a lot here. It'll take years to learn it all, but only then you will know why user rave about this browser.

Yes, there are bugs. Some serious, and still unfixed. But what browser is bug-free? Ever read through the list of Mozilla bugs on Bugzilla?

The major complaint users have is with sites that don't work in Opera. Time after time, it's been shown to be old JavaScript to blame (that was written for Opera 6). Or in extreme cases, the page is deliberately sending bad code to Opera. Mozilla and Firefox work because they are classed as "Netscape" and catered for.

It's your choice at the end of the day. People wanting a simple browser will choose Firefox. (It looks like IE6 so will be a natural replacement for many.) People wanting an advanced browser capable of some remarkable things, and very fast, with a small download, with a great support forum and regular new versions, will choose Opera.

Brett_Tabke




msg:1585376
 11:18 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

> How does their email compare to
> the other email clients out there?

Some people love it and use it daily becuase it has the most unique system of mail handling on the planet.

I think that it has a steep learning curve and could not get used to the system of usage required.

> Google toolbar.

Agreed - but you will find "g keyword" very useful.

Also turn off referring urls so you aren't tracked everywhere (F12).

>css striping

Try G and shift G and Control-G - then figure out what that does (total control of page graphics and css - run **** number of custom CSS files if you wish. Sure slices through the garabage).

> update the WebmasterWorld Opera Companion

Still works good here!

> Can anyone enlighten me as to why I may be wrong?

Speed of usage.

> css vs ie

Ya, IE6 is pretty out dated. It needs to add alot to catch up.

grandpa




msg:1585377
 11:20 am on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Well, I don't like it

But there's no rule to tell me I have to keep thinking that way. I've been upset with either Netscape or IE over the rendering of my pages since I started using css.

As a browser, I do like a few of things I've discovered about it, and there looks to be a lot. I can't do this with a right click in IE <snip> <it was a quick one word translation>

Maybe I should make it my default for at least a few days.

dillonstars




msg:1585378
 12:12 pm on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Thinking about it, my favourite feature of Opera is the ability to save sessions, so that when you reopen Opera, all the web pages that you were looking at last time open up again for you.

It makes the continuity of my workflow superb and I rarely forget what I am working on.

Opera very very rarely crashes on me, and I have had numerous problems with the stability of firefox. I do still use firefox for testing, but Opera is my browser of choice for surfing.

I've never tried email though Opera though.

Hester




msg:1585379
 12:20 pm on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

You can also just close the browser down, and if you've kept the startup message on, then choose to continue from last time - all your open pages return!

In fact that is a crucial feature seen whenever Opera crashes - it seems unique in enabling you to carry on from where you were!

photon




msg:1585380
 12:47 pm on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

With regards to the WebmasterWorld Opera Companion issue with the Tools and Chat menus, I stickied Nick and he said he'd take a look at it.

But I'm not promising anything on his behalf.

I've set my user agent to show as Opera because I want the web sites I visit to know that there are other browsers being used on their sites besides IE. If there's a site that gives me problems because of that, no worries: press F12, then one click later and I'm identified as "MSIE 6.0" (or even as "Mozilla 5.0", "Mozilla 4.78", "Mozilla 3.0" if I so desire).

Navigating links with SHIFT + arrow keys is awesome.

Right click option "Go to URL", for those addresses not linked is great, as is highlight-right click-"Search"--with any search engine I choose!

Hey Brett, what would it take for WebmasterWorld to support Opera "next" functionality: e.g., using the space bar to page down AND go to the next page in a thread?

Sinner_G




msg:1585381
 1:21 pm on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Ok, I've check the issue with Nick's menu. It is easy to avoid, you just have to open the file w[code][/code]mw.ini (should be under Documents and Settings\*username*\Application Data\Opera\Opera7\profile\menu\) with an editor (I use UltraEdit).

Near the top you'll see this:
[Browser Menu Bar]
and list of all menus (for version under 7.5 that is). Now just insert the following lines between those on Mail and Window:

Submenu, "Chat", Browser Chat Menu=
Submenu, "Tools", Browser Tools Menu=

That's it, next time you start Opera 7.5 you've got the full menu back. Oh, and shut down Opera before you do this (or before you save it), not sure it would be dangerous, but why take a risk.

<edit>Ooops, hadn't noticed the board changed the file name to WebmasterWorld.ini :), fixed now.
And thanks photon for reminding me to state that the path is for win2k.</edit>

[edited by: Sinner_G at 2:17 pm (utc) on May 14, 2004]

photon




msg:1585382
 1:51 pm on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Forgot to mention that if you want to see what your web site will look like on a small screen--SHIFT+F11.

And thanks for the menu tip Sinner_G!

<edited to add>
Cool! That worked just fine. Plus I may have to play around a bit more with that file--could be interesting. :)

BTW, a possible alternative location for the file would be C:\Program Files\Opera7\profile\menu (on Windows systems of course).
</edit>

Milamber




msg:1585383
 2:12 pm on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

I've never really used Opera before, and I'm wondering if there's some way to get PR to display in it.

dillonstars




msg:1585384
 2:35 pm on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

I've never really used Opera before, and I'm wondering if there's some way to get PR to display in it.

I'm actually very thankful that opera can't display PR. I don't find it a useful measure of anything and none of my sites have in any way suffered since I stopped looking at PR and started using a more commonsense to approach traffic building.

Opera certainly helped ween me off it.

Hester




msg:1585385
 3:34 pm on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

Just found this. Open 2 or more tabs, then press CTRL + TAB. A vertical version of Windows' ALT + TAB!

Sinner_G




msg:1585386
 3:57 pm on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

CTRL + TAB is cool, but I mostly use the 1 (next tab on the left) and the 2 (next tab on the right).

isitreal




msg:1585387
 5:00 pm on May 14, 2004 (gmt 0)

It's your choice at the end of the day. People wanting a simple browser will choose Firefox. (It looks like IE6 so will be a natural replacement for many.) People wanting an advanced browser capable of some remarkable things, and very fast, with a small download, with a great support forum and regular new versions, will choose Opera.

All browsers have bugs, all of them have features that others don't, all of them manage to find a niche for themselves if reasonably well done. Opera 7 is the best opera yet, it's small, it's lightweight, and now that I can get rid of most of the advertising, great... Firefox isn't a simple browser that looks like IE, it's another pretty slick choice out there, which offers a range of options, including having all of its source code available to any developer who wants to work on it. For example, Mozilla was/is the first browser I know of that will actually run mimetype xml.

However, Opera 7.5 does in fact have a very large display error which eventually somebody is going to spot if they start running complex enough css, and I'm going to have to implement, again, a browser version specific fix to get that working, something I'm getting pretty sick of doing when my HTML and CSS are both error free, and have been for a long time.

Making an advanced CSS rendering engine is obviously extremely difficult, or there would have been a bug free one by now, and obviously when the initial rendering engine architecture decisions are made, certain features are made possible, and others are made problematic, then when fixes are put into place, something else breaks. I've seen this now on IE 5.5 to 6, Firebird 0.7 to firefox 0.8, and Opera 7.2 to 7.5, where certain advanced CSS features that worked perfectly in the older version broke in the newer one.

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