The only reason I busted my butt to rewrite my app for Netscape was out of sense of loyalty to the "good old days"
So normally would be the way MS handles it?
I guess that's what I meant. How provincial and bigoted of me.
>until it reaches 40% market share.
How do you know 40% of your users don't already use it? It wasn't but a few months ago when StatMarket...etal started to properly count Opera (I still don't think they do). The only way you'll know is to look at raw agent stats and look for Opera in the UA.
Opera has passed 10million dl's and installs - someone is using the thing somewhere. And now with the ibm, amd, and nokia/symbian deals, Opera is going to continue to grow.
Sorry Tx, don't blame O for it's inability to run non-standard crudy js code that has been copied over and over.
>Opera's global usage share as of November 29, 2001, was 0.67 percent,
lol. You mean there are Opera users out there that haven't added Hitbox/statmarket to their global hosts ban list? Man, we have some work to do.
I'm using Analog which does show me Opera in the reports. It's barely a blip at this point.
I use opera, and like it too, but I don't want to rewrite my app for every available browser.
What about Copernic? I haven't noticed any differences in usage between Copernic and IE.
Opera is cool, and if your site dose'nt resolve properly in it, it ain't opera's fault.
> 10million dl's and installs
Congrats to Opera tho' a lot of those (not most, just a lot - and 10 million globally for free software isn't as amazing as you may at first think, though it is good) will be web professionals who use it for testing and not as their main browser (including me and nearly everybody in this office).
Aside, I love IE5s JS handling - it may have some of it's own proprietary methods, properties and behaviours, but believe me, if you're ever in a position to be able to develop advanced client side behaviour for IE5+ ONLY you'll appreciate some of the extras;).
Yes, Joshie's right - lots of nice intuitive extras with IE.
Of course those got me into trouble with Netscape and I've had to backpedal quite a few neat tricks, but I did find work arounds - mostly.....
I'm still stuck with that "Object Moved" page with Netscape though.
remember also that Opera can be set to identify itself as other browsers...so it is entirely possible that some of the IE or NN stats are actually Opera in disguise
Hmm, Opera still has a lot to prove in my eyes. IE is always being slated for it's security and everyone has to agree that some of the holes have been gaping. But when passing judgement on this you should also bear in mind that the vast majority of hackers are going to be focussed on cracking IE because of it's wide spread popularity (and hacker's general hatred for MS).
I've already seen lots of things in Opera 6 which have left me indifferent to its release - mostly it's apparent lack of scripting support.
For instance try changing the className of a table data tag onmouseover or onmouseout... nothing. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but even Netscape 6 copes gracefully with such scripting.
Put a line break in the middle of your <a> tags and your pseudo hover only works for the line your over.
Interestingly, the following line of script causes Opera 6 to crash and totally bin out on every machine I've tried it on.
window.top.hsplit.cols = "*,0";
Where hsplit is the name of a FRAMESET (with two columns), if you change the name attribute to an id attribute it doesn't crash out.
OK, only a few examples but the point is that I hardly ever test anything on Opera, and because of my disappointment when I do I don't intend to start just yet.
I'm sure Brett's gonna come down on this one like a ton of bricks, but I felt I had to say it: "I'll stick with IE thanks, for now anyway".
Congrats to Opera! The fact is it is growing. I too have been frustrated with not being able to use M$ js at times.But, I test all my pages under Opera and have seen an increase in Opera users (and orders) over the last few months. Orders taken that had I not taken the extra time I would not have gotten.
Now being a Linux user I have gone back and made some changes to my pages that have made them more compatable (mostly fonts). Low and behold my Linux page views are up.
If there are 10 million Opera users thats 10 million possible customers to think about.
Joshie, the reverse is also true. If you used Opera all the time and wrote page with it/for it, you would be amazed at the number of errors in IE and NN you would run into. I have no doubt the number of html parsing errors in Netscapse 4, and Netscape/Mozilla are 10 fold those found in Opera.
If I write a page that runs through the w3c validator, I know it will atleast display in Opera. I can write pages all day long that will validate but not work in Netscape.
just a couple of pennies out of my pocket:
Actually, Opera's implementation of ECMAScript is as good (or better) than anyone's. It is DOM2 (object model) support that's lacking. It's pretty much confirmed now that Opera is working on a brand new rendering engine - supposedly very fast and DOM2 compliant.
Opera's dedication to standards is what attracted me to it in the first place. True, there are some things I don't like about it - but if all browser vendors were as serious about standards-compliance, our jobs as developers would be much easier!
Concerning Opera's market share. I tend to look for niche markets anyway - I can make a decent living off of a small percentage of 10 million!
I hoped this would open a can of worms;)
I should say that I do indeed support Opera and I want them to do well. I think some competition in the market is essential to keep things moving otherwise MS is likely to sit on IE like it has with many other products where it totally dominates the market.
>>the reverse is also true. If you used Opera all the time
I can see this would likely be the case, however, the glitches do dissapoint me though (no changes of class names etc). Additionally I'm in a lucky position where my development tends to be entirely targetted at a single browser (intranets, applications etc) ~ 90% of the time this is IE. If I ever develop for the internet - I always aim to support Opera.
Netscape... don't get me started on Netscape.
Note: Having just upgraded to Opera 6.01 I'm pleased to confirm that the line of code in my post above no longer trashes the entire process. Just doesn't do anything.
I've been bitten by the Opera bug (as in I love it!) and I am hardline web standards with all of my coding now.
What I love most as a developer is Opera's hard line interpretation of web standards and clean coding. As Brett mentioned - if I build a page and it displays properly in Opera - the code will validate as well.
I am quickly leaving propriety coding behind.
NS4.x ??? left that dog months ago! To ignore Web Standards just to appease the dying remnants of the NS crowd is NOT my choice...
OPERA IS the Web Developer's best friend right now.
Wanted to amplify a point from Eric Jarvis some time back:
Opera can be set to identify itself as Opera, as IE, or as Netscape (Mozilla). As a long-time Opera user, I've found that if I set it for "Opera", it doesn't take much browsing to hit a site that EXPLICITLY won't display for me. So I tend to leave it set as IE. With this set, I rarely hit a site that displays badly or not at all.
I'm sure other Opera users quickly discovered this same sad state of affairs, so I'll bet only a small percentage of Opera hits show that they're from Opera.
Web developers should at least let me see their site, Opera warts and all, if I'm not IE or Netscape. If your site sees an Opera user, display a warning if you feel you must, but then at least display the IE version. Better yet, get out of MS's pocket and dump the features that cause you and the rest of us all this extra work.
Opera the company has a very active user community and upgrades their code to reflect user problems with specific sites. They're amazingly responsive at this, especially considering that many users use the free download.
jirving - welcome to the forums and thanks for making some good points.
Besides standards support, I'm also big on Opera because of the usability and the many well considered features, the speed, and the efficient, non-bloated code. I wish that every application was developed so intelligently on so many fronts.
It's very easy to use "Quick Preferences" to switch identity from Opera to IE when I "must", so I'm trying to run as Opera as much as possible. I want those websites to see the up and coming browser in their stats.
I've been running Opera 6.02 beta since Brett posted the link, I also have it set to be identified AS Opera - I feel much the same as Tedster does: I want Opera to be picked up in the stats.
I also run "as Opera" because I want to see how many "troubled sites" I can find. What I have noticed it that there are few fewer occurances where Opera will have problems displaying a site. Very few in fact; much less than v.5.
And as a good learning tool, when I do find a site that Opera balks on, I look to the source code to find the reasons. All together now... one, two, three!! PROPRIETY CODING! Hallelujah, brothers and sisters, Can I get a witness!!?
By the way, there is a VERY INTERESTING trend being reported by TheCounter.com's browser stats: compare the change in ratios between Opera and Netscape 6 for the last several months:
The Counter.com is the main one that we believe miscounts Opera as IE or Netscape when Opera is id'ing as IE or Netscape.
You can get a witness for "validated code" - yes.
From all I have read, I have no doubts that Opera is "mis-counted."
Trends can sometimes still be hinted at. Either TheCounter.com has improved there recording methods, or there is a noticeable growth rate for the Opera stats the do record.
In any event, it appears that Opera is suddenly gaining ground on Netscape 6.x where previously, the growth trends were somewhat matching.
It is interesting to note that Opera 6 (with java) is ranked #37 on Download.com's popular download list. This is for ALL categories. In the Internet Category, Opera is ranked #5 and in all cases, it is well ahead (in popularity) of any other browser downloads.
Validate your code brothers and sisters! Embrace the Standards!