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Opera Browser Usage and Support Forum

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What are the best Browsers and Why?
IE, Opera, Netscape, Mozilla Etc.
RobbieD




msg:1586877
 12:35 am on Aug 4, 2003 (gmt 0)

Just wanted to know what everyone's favorite browser is and why?

 

hartlandcat




msg:1586937
 7:51 am on Aug 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Netscape (pre 7) used the route down method of handling events, while IE used the Bubble-up approach.

So you're using old versions of Netscape in your arguments? Netscape 7 is the now version of Netscape. Not Netscape 6 or 4, as many people seem to think. There are things IE 5 doesn't do that IE 6 does. There's a lot more that IE 4 doesn't do that IE 6 does. In this thread, we are comparing browsers by their latest version. Any arguments for what old versions did wrong is totally invalid.

[edited by: hartlandcat at 7:52 am (utc) on Aug. 11, 2003]

tedster




msg:1586938
 8:38 am on Aug 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Well, when it comes to DOM support and/or CSS-2 standards, there's no browser yet available that's got a clean bill of health. Let's face it, we're still involved with nascent technology.

And the W3C is getting tied in knots in certain areas (the deprecated target attribute for instance)and that makes for a disconnect between ideals and practical needs.

But browser developers MUST be practical...code must either be executed in a specified fashion or ignored, with no possibility for navel gazing. And the development process, which takes time, must set certain things early on and then progress. Sometimes I can see why some browsers do things in non-standard ways. After all, the danged thing's got to get to market.

It amazes me that there is still such cross-browser inconsistency on some relatively basic issues. And I do wonder about the long-term lack of browser support for certain features: max-width/min-width, position:fixed, and even the box model itself. Does the W3C generate ideals that are somehow lacking in consistency, so that their practical execution just becomes too knotty?

MonkeeSage




msg:1586939
 9:38 am on Aug 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

tedster:

Very good points. The discrepancy that obviously exists between concept and implementation in the current industry standards is a bit of a puzzle to me also.

Jordan

txbakers




msg:1586940
 12:10 pm on Aug 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Not Netscape 6 or 4, as many people seem to think

The key words there is "as many people seem to think". We're talking the real world, not the latest thing of the moment.

Most Netscape users are still using 4.X of one type of another. I have to encourage them to download 7. I actually encourage them to uninstall it altogether and use the IE already on their computers.

I sure we hope we don't start into one of those "post your stats" threads now......

Sinner_G




msg:1586941
 12:33 pm on Aug 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

I must have missed something here. The thread title was about the best browser, not the most used ones. Now I guess we all agree that IF someone considers a NS browser to be the best, it will be version 7 and not 4 or 6 or 3 or Navigator Gold.

Farix




msg:1586942
 1:12 pm on Aug 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

Most Netscape users are still using 4.X of one type of another. I have to encourage them to download 7.

Do you have any statistics to back that up? Because the logs of a site I help maintain shows the opposite.

I actually encourage them to uninstall it altogether and use the IE already on their computers.

Um, why? Netscape 7 is a better browser then any version of IE that is pre-installed on the computers. And if they don't want all of the bells and whistles in Netscape 7, you could encourage them to use Mozilla instead. The problem with recommending IE as the replacement for NN 4 is that you are replacing one bad browser with another.

I sure we hope we don't start into one of those "post your stats" threads now......

Well, you can't make claims that one browser version is used more then another without provided some stats.

hartlandcat




msg:1586943
 2:10 pm on Aug 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

As for telling people to uninstall Netscape 4.x and using the IE already installed on their computer... you are forgetting one slight problem with that.

Most people still using Netscape 4.x are using Windows 98 (or lower). If you are telling Windows 98 users to use the version of IE installed already on their computer, then you are telling them to use IE 4.0. IE4 instead of NN4 is hardly an improvement. And it gets worse than this. If they have Windows 95 OSR-2 or NT Workstation 4.0, then the version of IE they will have pre-installed will be IE 3.0. And... -cringes-, if they have the original Windows 95, then it will be IE 2.0, or in some cases, IE will not be installed.

I'm sorry, but that is just not a viable option.

And now... my browser stats. As it has been said, you cannot make aligations such as "most Netscape users use Netscape 4.x", without some form of stats to back it up (or down, as the case may be ^_^).

MSIE 6.0: 57.38%
MSIE 5.5: 11.36%
MSIE 5.0: 9.16%
Netscape 7.x: 8.86% (also includes Mozilla etc.)
AOL 7.0: 3.55%
AOL 8.0: 3.39%
MSIE 5.1/2: 1.11%
MSIE 4.0: 1.04%
Robots/Crawlers: 0.94%
Netscape 4.x: 0.89%
AOL 6.0: 0.66%
Opera 7.x: 0.54% (most likely higher than this)
MSIE 5.1: 0.39%
Netscape 6.x: 0.28%
WebTV 2.6: 0.24%
AOL 5.0: 0.14%
Opera 6.0: 0.12% (most likely higher than this)
Safari 1.0: 0.11% (most likely higher than this)
MSIE 4.5: 0.08%
Opera 4.0: 0.05%
WebTV 1.2: 0.05%
Konqueror 3.1: 0.02%
AOL 4.0: 0.02%
AOL 9.0: 0.02%
CompuServe 7.0: 0.02%
Netscape 3.0: 0.02%

And no my site does not attract geeks. If anything, it attracts the opposite.

As for the "most likely higher than this" browsers, some browsers give the option to pretend to be another browser, to avoid being locked out of sites. Opera identifies as IE 6.0 by default.

TheWhippinpost




msg:1586944
 7:17 pm on Aug 11, 2003 (gmt 0)

All I know is when someone asks for a site check or code verification, most of the comments that come back are, 'doesn't work in Opera, Moz Netscape etc...', rarely, 'doesn't work in IE

...and as I mentioned in another monthly digest of "Let's bash the browsers", there's some nifty things you can do in IE code-wise, that ya can't do in other browsers...even after all this time! </troll>

hartlandcat




msg:1586945
 8:45 am on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

What "nifty things" are you talking about in particular?
And there are a lot more things you can do in Netscape/Mozilla/Opera and even Konqueror that you can't do in IE. Think about it. If IE supported position:fixed (which is part of the W3C standard) then frames would now be obsolete. And if IE supported transparent/translucent/animated PNGs then it wouldn't just be Mozilla fansites that do clever tricks with translucent backgrounds.

victor




msg:1586946
 9:13 am on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

The thread title was about the best browser, not the most used ones.

And the actual question was about favorite browsers, so there was a lot of scope to answer either question.

But to look at the best? part. I gotta ask best for what?/ Otherwise it's a meaningless question like what is the best shop? or what is my best toe?.

Best for what could include:

  • Best for a three-year old PC with limited memory
  • Best for a PDA
  • Best for a brand new MAC
  • Best for a partially sighted user
  • Best for previewing a site with the hope that if it works here, it'll work (more-or-less) anywhere
  • Best for not compromising my computer's security
  • Best for being able to run along side IE 5.5
  • Best for using without a mouse
  • TheWhippinpost




    msg:1586947
     10:00 am on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

    I might flippantly say, 'If you have to ask, why are you arguing at all!'...but that would be flippant ;¬)

    Ya know, I just did a search here and gave up 'cos I know this same question came up elsewhere and I posted a link but can I find it now? No!

    So, be prepared for lot's of reading [msdn.microsoft.com] and learning - The page you land at is just that, a landing page, look to the menu on the left, some of which are IE-only, some not, enjoy ;¬)

    txbakers




    msg:1586948
     12:38 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

    this same question came up elsewhere

    Yeah, it comes up about every 60 days or so. I don't like to see IE totally bashed to a pulp every time. Yes the other browsers have nicer features and gimmicks, that's good.

    But I think people get overly carried away.

    hartlandcat




    msg:1586949
     2:44 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

    I might flippantly say, 'If you have to ask, why are you arguing at all!'...but that would be flippant ;¬)

    Ya know, I just did a search here and gave up 'cos I know this same question came up elsewhere and I posted a link but can I find it now? No!

    I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't understand a word of that. I've never heard of the word "flippant" before, nor do I really understand what you are trying to say.

    bachius




    msg:1586950
     3:33 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

    he,he...if you used Opera you could only doubleclick on the word "flippant" and select Dictionary... :)

    Then you'd end up here:
    [infoplease.lycos.com...]

    hartlandcat




    msg:1586951
     5:28 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

    Is "flippant" some sort of American term?

    tedster




    msg:1586952
     6:00 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

    I don't like to see IE totally bashed to a pulp

    Yes, it was a decent browser when it was first released. Just a bit old for what we want now with CSS standards and all.

    NOTE:
    Flippant
    From m-w.com:

    Main Entry: flip·pant
    Pronunciation: 'fli-p&nt
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: probably from flip
    Date: 1605
    1 archaic: GLIB, TALKATIVE
    2 current: lacking proper respect or seriousness

    hartlandcat




    msg:1586953
     6:13 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

    Um, unless I'm very much mistaken, Internet Explorer 1.0 was horrendous. I didn't even come close to Netscape 1.0 with anything.

    MonkeeSage




    msg:1586954
     7:50 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

    You know...there are so many factors that go into why a person uses a browser that it is virtually impossible to say that one is better than another, in all cases, for everyone. I was just thinking about this last night. I think that if we take into account the complex nature of various work environments, accessibility issues, personal taste and so on, then the call becomes basically a subjective one, regardless of all the different objective traits of each browser.

    That being said, I don't really see anything wrong with using IE as a browser of choice, it's just not my own personal choice. I certainly haven't meant to bash IE to a pulp (I'm happy when my sites are viewed -- use whatever you like to view them...just view them! Heh).

    :)

    Jordan

    TheWhippinpost




    msg:1586955
     9:14 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

    Well said MonkeeSage - At the end of the day, no one wins these arguments and it's only us snobs in the fraternity that bothers having them...I just take pleasure in illuminating the dark corners of IE that folk either don't know about or ignore ;¬)

    drbrain




    msg:1586956
     3:44 pm on Aug 13, 2003 (gmt 0)


    All I know is when someone asks for a site check or code verification, most of the comments that come back are, 'doesn't work in Opera, Moz Netscape etc...', rarely, 'doesn't work in IE.

    That's because the majority of the web development community is stuck using IE. I could give you a long list of things that are not possible in IE, but what would the point be? Nobody cares because most people can't even see it. It seems that everybody thinks "oh, Eric Meyer's css/edge stuff is nifty, but my users won't be able to use it, oh-well."

    Standards compliant browsers are just beginning to cause a ripple of adjustment in the web-development community. Will it turn into a crashing tsunami? Too early to tell, but they can either be a thorn in your side, or a stepping stone to web-design bliss. IE6 supports this standards stuff well enough to not get in the way too much, so its your choice.

    Oh, and just to make this clear, the developers of IE don't care about you. The developers of Gecko, Opera, Safari, Konqueror, etc. are actually available for comment and will *gasp* fix bugs, or tell you where you went wrong (or where IE is broken)!

    In fact, right now, I'm sitting on IRC with actual developers of Gecko. If they don't answer your questions, somebody else probably will, or at least point you to where you can find out for yourself. Try and get that kind of support out of MicroSoft.

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