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What should Yahoo do to lure adsense publishers?
ownerrim

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 11:12 pm on Mar 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Transparency, full or partial, in terms?
A defined percentage split?
Vetting of sites admitted to the program?
The option to run multiple contextual programs on the same pages?

Just throwing stuff out there.

 

garyr_h

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 5:29 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

For Yahoo! all they have to do is... nothing. That is right, nothing. There are so many people on this board who whine about Adsense that all they have to do is come out with a product and they will get a serious amount of advertisers/publishers.

And if they show any extra benifet from it... boom. The war begins.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3 posted 5:39 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

There are so many people on this board who whine about Adsense that all they have to do is come out with a product and they will get a serious amount of advertisers/publishers.

Yes, but does Yahoo want publishers who are unhappy with AdSense? It's more likely that Yahoo wants publishers who are making money hand over fist with AdSense.

It's like anything else:

- If you were recruiting salespeople, would you want the competition's lowest-earning or highest-earning reps?

- If you were a book publisher trying to lure authors away from your competitors, would you go after the authors with poor sales and royalties or the authors whose books are bestsellers?

Undead Hunter

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 5:47 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

Doesn't it make sense that Yahoo would pay more on the lower end of clicks, since they charge more for a minimum keyword?

Transparency. That's absolutely top of my mind with all this. Even if they said "SmartPricing could mean you get paid 10-50%", then at least we'd have some idea of what was going on.

Or better yet, show us the *conversion* rate of our websites. Forget the CTR, share the conversion rate anonymously - that would be better for both us and the advertisers. Then we could choose our content and adjust it appropriately. New content, for sure.

I also think it would be foolish NOT to test it out a serious alternative network. Run AdSense and Yahoo on every OTHER page on the site, switch them back and forth every day. Or run all AdSense in the morning one day, all Yahoo the next. And so on.

Unless one is significantly higher than the other, stay diversified.

I've read this is commonplace in some manufacturing circles. Keep the suppliers diversified, it keeps them staying on their toes giving you the best product and it keeps up competition for the lowest price/best quality. No one gets more than 70% of the supply contracts.

Still, it wouldn't surprise me if either company made this against the TOS. "No other contextual advertisers, period."

robho

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 5:53 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

Nice to have:

  1. offer a CPM alternative (or minimum earnings guarantee)
  2. per page stats, like Adsonar, with grouping
  3. payment by wire transfer anywhere at no charge, like Sedo
  4. support forums answered fast by company employees
  5. choice of ad formats, including ability to vary font size

But, as others say, when they exist it'd be silly not to do a comparison test with Adsense on your sites, even if their features are essentially identical.

In the end it's money that will win, especially when the contract terms and customer service standard (Adsense's) are so easy to beat.

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3 posted 5:53 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

does Yahoo want publishers who are unhappy with AdSense?

What about the publishers banished from AdSense with no reason or recourse at all?

We read some click their own ads (idiots), some tell their friends to click (morons), some seem to legitimately have no clue what happened (martyrs).

My site makes a serious amount of coin each month and I'm happy with Adsense although I would be tempted to "test" Yahoo on a page or two for grins. However, if I suddenly got a letter from Google telling me my site was banned for no reason, with no recourse, Yahoo would definitely get my business.

Undead Hunter

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 6:05 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

It's funny, but only a few months ago I was a die-hard Google fan. I wouldn't have tested Yahoo just on principal.

But they've dropped the ball, time and time again. Not enough information. Changes implimented days before a letter about it. No heads-up on anything that's happening: login one morning and things look different. Even the payment terms are no great heck, compared to some affiliate programs.

Maybe the question should be is there anyone who *isn't* going to at least test out Yahoo's program? And for what reason?

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3 posted 6:12 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)


It's funny, but only a few months ago I was a die-hard Google fan.

I was the same way, then I found WebmasterWorld. The AdSense discontent being spread is just as infectious as malcontents in an office environment, it's very bad for moral.

I must admit I get frustrated when it takes 100 additional clicks on Tues to make slightly less money than 100 less clicks made on Monday, but I'm not ready to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs over market fluctuations, not yet.

ownerrim

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 6:14 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

there are so many ways yahoo could go with this. they could be extremely selective about who gets in and reward them with a very nice percentage. that way they would get the cream of google's crop and not to have to worry about the sludge.

they could also take google's come-one-come-all approach and who knows where that would lead (other than the obvious hemorrhaging for google's bottom line--short term at least)

to attract publishers they need to offer terms at least as good as adsense. to keep them, they need to avoid some of the perceived shortcomings of adsense: most notably (my perception at least), the shortcomings seem to include persistent and erratic alterations in epc.

but it seems as though Y would definitely be in the catbird seat. for them, any extra revenue they get out of this is gravy---whereas for google it is ALL LOSS.

sailorjwd

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 6:43 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

You may find this strange...

I would want Yahoo to charge a hefty fee - maybe a $250 to $500 review fee - for each domain registered.

That may cut down a little on the crappppy sites.

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3 posted 6:53 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

If you want to cut down on the crappy sites, simply let the advertisers approve and decline where their adds show, likewise let the publishers approve and decline which ads they run. The quality ads and sites will find each other and the crap ads and sites will also find each other. This method has worked very well for affiliate programs.

steve40

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 6:57 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

sailorjwd
Not sure if that is a bit high maybe $200 and if accepted would give additional benefits i.e.
direct deposit
better reporting
use of positive or negative keywords to help targetting
Some form of idea as to percentage say between 60% to 70%
No service charges after matching certain threshold of earnings
Tighter manual checking of domains for abuse of TOS
Limited adds but better targetted

I have 3 domains that I no longer run adsense on due to poor targetting and ebay or similar adds that were not even relevent

steve

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 7:07 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

They need to exist. That would get them a ton of business real quick.

HughMungus

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 7:20 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

1. Vet all sites before ads may be displayed.
2. There is no #2.

phantombookman

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 7:23 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

Sort their index out!
No point having often only a fraction of a sites pages in their index if they want to make money off ads

Oetzi

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 7:43 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

I think everybody on this board is missing the threat. Yahoo (and later MSN) coming in will be a disaster for us all. Can you imagine doubling (or more) the advertising space available to advertisers and the price for advertising space to remain the same? No way, price for space will drop very significantly for all advertisers, both on G and Y and so will our revenue. It is just a simple demand and supply law. As soon as Y is in the game expect your revenue to drop, big time. I just hope that Y will allow advertisers to choose the sites where they want to appear. That might save the publishers with valuable content and that could lure me to Y.

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3 posted 7:52 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

As soon as Y is in the game expect your revenue to drop, big time.

You think, assuming they use the Overture advertisers, than the cost per click for overture will plunge?

If it impacts negatively on Yahoo's bottom line I think they'll shut it down in a heartbeat.

More likely you may be right, we may get lower CPM rates in the long run, but at the moment we don't even qualify for Yahoo so let's remain optimistic in the the fact the Yahoo advertisers will take a while before they realize they can pay less for the same results.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3 posted 8:05 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

I think everybody on this board is missing the threat. Yahoo (and later MSN) coming in will be a disaster for us all. Can you imagine doubling (or more) the advertising space available to advertisers and the price for advertising space to remain the same? No way, price for space will drop very significantly for all advertisers, both on G and Y and so will our revenue. It is just a simple demand and supply law. As soon as Y is in the game expect your revenue to drop, big time.

Not necessarily. The demand for PPC ad inventory has been growing (which may be one reason why Google has been slow to deal with "scraper sites" and other made-for-AdSense junk sites).

There could excess inventory in some categories, especially for ads that get distributed to many thousands of sites. But in other categories, there may still be a shortage of inventory. We'll have to wait and see.

The entry of Yahoo into the marketplace could be a good thing for advertisers and for publishers who have clean, high-quality sites in profitable niches. If overall cost per click does fall due to excess inventory, then Yahoo and/or Google will have an incentive to provide higher-quality referrals by purging junk sites that may be sucking up impressions, clicks, and ad budgets without delivering value to advertisers.

Freedom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 8:33 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

Can you imagine doubling (or more) the advertising space available to advertisers and the price for advertising space to remain the same?

Think about that for a minute. Again. The amount of advertising space is NOT going to DOUBLE just because Yahoo introduces a contextual ad program. Websites will have EITHER Adsense or Yahoo, not both at the same time.

Let's assume that 100 percent of website publishers out there now have signed up for Adsense. Those that don't stay with Adsense will go to Yahoo, but advertising space with not actually double. It can only double if there are twice as many publishers getting involved with either program.

Advertising prices may drop because of increased competition as advertisers shop around, but that will be a pain for many of them to keep up with all the time. Sooner or later, CPC will even out across the board at both places when things settle down.

My guess is Yahoo will offer advantages that Google doesn't and vice versa, and publishers will have to choose which program has the advantages they prefer.

The nice part about a new contextual program is that when I get kicked out of Google (for no fault of my own), I have someplace else I can go. This offers more stability to me as a publisher.

I don't mind losing a few dollars per CPM if I get some more stability. Afterall, I still want to be doing this 10 years from now.

ownerrim

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 9:29 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

"The demand for PPC ad inventory has been growing"

Not only that, I've noticed in some ad categories that you see an entirely different cohort of advertisers. In other words, in some areas people use google or yahoo, not necessarily both.

Undead Hunter

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 9:52 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

About vetting sites and the scraper sites, and about letting advertisers pick the sites they are on...

How do we *know* that every one of those scraper sites aren't converting to sales?

We can guess all we want, but unless you can track conversion statistics, none of us have any idea how they do. Sure, I find them junk, and I doubt they work. But we don't really know for sure without statistics.

Anyway, I'm not worried about those because my guess is that SmartPricing takes care of the worst of them - how many people complaining about their CPM dropping rapidly over time have this kind of website? None of us know for sure.

As for letting advertisers choose - they have *no idea* whether your site or my site converts to sales better or not. Most of the affiliates I know have a "sample site" that they apply for to affiliate programs, and then they never, ever run them on that site.

No, if I was at Yahoo, I would offer not just the same program as Google, but I would add a few extra features to rip away market share from Google! Even if it costs me in the short-term, I can always toss out the sites that don't perform well in the long-term. I think they'd be making a BIG mistake to stick with only "premium" publishers, those over X amount of page views.

And as EuropeForVisitors said over on another thread - "AdSense is a market of niches" - so again, having publishers over a certain page view limit could work against this long term.

Oetzi

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 9:55 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

There is another variable to the equation. G rotates ads in its Adwords program, while Overture does not. To appear on the top listings you need to pay Overture top $ if you are in a competitive marketplace. This is not necessarily the case with Adwords. Assuming that Y will provide us with the top listings as well, those of us in the right niche could be substantially better offer with Y, at least in the short term. Percentage wise they could pay less than G, but they could allocate to us many more expensive clicks than G does.

“The amount of advertising space is NOT going to DOUBLE just because Yahoo introduces a contextual ad program. Websites will have EITHER Adsense or Yahoo, not both at the same time”

Freedom, you have a very good point in saying that. However the exposure that Y will give to such a program will be such that it will substantially increase the number of publishers, which makes me still conclude that for most of us this will be a disaster.

Undead Hunter

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 9:55 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

As Freedom has pointed out, that if I "get kicked out" of AdSense, I'll have other places to go.

So look for more people to push the bounds of what AdSense finds acceptable, if the Yahoo program shows any promise at all! And vice versa.

ken_b

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ken_b us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 10:04 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

“The amount of advertising space is NOT going to DOUBLE just because Yahoo introduces a contextual ad program. Websites will have EITHER Adsense or Yahoo, not both at the same time”

I wonder how much "space" was created just to accomodate Adsense?

Ok, the space available may not double, but if the Y program is like Adsense, there's no reason to belive it won't result in some considerable amount of new space being created.

WallyWorld

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 10:49 pm on Mar 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

Maybe Yahoo should give us a signing bonus! :-)

robsmith

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 1:11 am on Mar 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'm a long time lurker and just have a few words directed at the holier than thou crowd here. I am both an adwords advertiser and an adsense site owner.

I am sick of all of you complaining about so-called-scraper sites.... To be honest, they provide the best conversion rates on the net.. Much better than your message forums or content sites. I have seen that when people get to scraper sites, they already have entered them by searching for the keywords.. The ones that aren't interested simply move.. BUT, the ones that click on the ads CONVERT. Now, on some high traffic forums and content sites, I get mostly lookie lous.. I would love to pull my ads from these sites.

I hope yahoo does allow scraper sites and allow me as an advertiser to pull my ads from content sites.

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3 posted 1:29 am on Mar 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I am sick of all of you complaining about so-called-scraper sites....

Guess you're confusing what I consider "made for adsense" sites that have some value and decent conversion vs. truely scraper sites that just muck up the SERPs with garbage pages that people close before they click on anything. If the SERPs return nothing but true scraper sites people will stop using the search engines and your online advertising budget won't be worth the paper it's printed on.

Cut out the middle man, advertise on them directly and save half your money.

annej

WebmasterWorld Senior Member annej us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 2:06 am on Mar 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

How do we *know* that every one of those scraper sites aren't converting to sales?

I really don't care if they convert or not. I'd like to have a program for people who care about being seen as a quality publisher or advertiser. There have got to be some advertisers that care about what kinds of sites they are seen on simply because quality sites will help their reputation.

mayor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 3:15 am on Mar 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'm an AdSense publisher and I have ad space that I won't offer to Google simply because I'm not willing to put all my ad space eggs in one basket. To maintain diversification, I use a significant portion of ad space for affiliate programs, even though Google AdSense is a more desireable program to work with than some of the affiliate programs.

I'd like to see Yahoo offer a program similar to AdSense just for diversification. Google would not be the one to lose traffic to Yahoo but some marginal affiliate programs would.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3 posted 5:44 am on Mar 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

So look for more people to push the bounds of what AdSense finds acceptable, if the Yahoo program shows any promise at all!

More people than now? That's hard to believe!

And why should anyone who's bounced from AdSense for pushing the bounds of what's acceptable expect to be welcomed by Yahoo? If Yahoo is smart, its standards will be higher than AdSense's, not lower.

crobb305

WebmasterWorld Senior Member crobb305 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 8:57 am on Mar 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

I definitely like more convenient payment methods (direct deposit, etc). Also, a they could be strict as to who can advertise. Google has let every scraper site out there into the adsense program. This encourages the formation of useless scraper/directory style sites in my opinion.

C

Freedom

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3 posted 9:49 am on Mar 10, 2005 (gmt 0)

However the exposure that Y will give to such a program will be such that it will substantially increase the number of publishers, which makes me still conclude that for most of us this will be a disaster.

I don't think it will substantially increase the number of publishers. It might go up some, but not a lot. I think the cream of the publisher crop has already become Adsense publishers. Some will go over to Yahoo for the diversification, but only when new publishers sign up is advertising space going up.

I think Adsense already has the best of the internet because look at how they are asking people to recommend a friend to the program. Google is also having their employees "cold call" non-AS website publishers as was related in another thread.

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