| 10:42 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Twist -- you can twist in the wind on your own. That's why no one is wasting time on your "tell me 'yes' or 'no'" line.
In regards to my initial query:
My husband's a licensed general aviation pilot (single engine aircraft). He got his pilot's license long after we got married. So while I said I'm the more tech-savvy in my house, that doesn't apply to aviation -- a challenging and technical pursuit, in its own right.
My hubby understands enough code to understand when I'm cursing over a temporary programming issue and walk him through the pseudocode -- he just doesn't particularly get excited about coding. We met online in the late 80's so we're both card carrying geeks; no way to deny that one.
To me a "geek" is really anyone who's on the top of their game in some involved, technical pursuit (hobby or otherwise).
Anyway, while I personally like being a female geek I'm not saying all women in this field have to be geeks to "fit in" just as all men I deal with online don't qualify as geeks, either.
To the person who asked why gender matters -- there are 14 pages in this thread of why it matters. That, and it gets old receiving emails from fellow web developers, web designers or small business people with the default salutation, "Dear Mr. XXXX" when I'm a female, have been all my life and always will be. In that regard, I see nothing wrong with a thread like this that provides a little eye opening.
| 11:14 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)|
*edit* forget what I said,
I think I have a way of clearing this up,
How do you define webmaster? I define webmaster as anybody that has a website. If a person has the ability to add a mailto at the bottom of a webpage that says email@example.com they are, in my eyes, a webmaster.
If a person doesn't, or never had, a website, I would not call them a webmaster. It would not be a putdown or offensive. There is nothing wrong with not being a webmaster. I doubt anyone on earth, who never had a website, would become upset if you told them they were not a webmaster. I think most here can agree on that.
How to define a programmer?
If I, or any other programmer here, opened a software business tommorrow and had to hire a team of programmers, how would we choose who to hire. Well there would be all sorts of ways but,
If I showed the snippet of code to a potential employee and he/she said they didn't understand it, I without doubt would not hire them to be a programmer at my business. I don't think any programmer here would disagree with me. The code that I put up is pretty basic stuff. It wouldn't be confusing to a programmer whatsover. Having said that,
If you are not a programmer then you are not a programmer, why is that offensive? Programmers work hard to learn how to write code. If you didn't work hard to learn to write code then why on earth would you be offended if someone said, "hey, your not a programmer." I was merely curious how many woman here were programmers. Instead I am getting jumped for accusing people of not being programmers. You are either a programmer or your not a programmer, there is no need to take any sort of offense from it.
[edited by: twist at 11:41 pm (utc) on Dec. 7, 2004]
| 11:36 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I fancy Twist means something like:
01 X PIC 99 VALUE 1.
01 Y PIC 99 VALUE ZEROS.
01 Z PIC 99 VALUE ZEROS.
01 TEMP1 PIC 99 VALUE ZEROS.
01 TEMP2 PIC 99 VALUE ZEROS.
01 TEMP3 PIC 99 VALUE ZEROS.
ADD 1 TO X GIVING Y
DIVIDE X BY Y GIVING TEMP1 REMAINDER TEMP2.
DIVIDE TEMP2 BY 2 GIVING TEMP3.
IF (TEMP3 IS GREATER THAN 0) OR (TEMP2 IS GREATER THAN 0) THEN
Z = 12
Z = 13.
IF X IS LESS THAN 15 THEN
ADD 1 TO X GIVING X
GO TO MAIN.
That's not shouting by the way, my punch card machine and printer only have upper case.
| 11:44 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Y'know, twist, you keep on keepin' on....
I use php on a regular basis, because my sites use includes. I do NOT write php well, as far as a coding language goes. There's two totally separate uses within/upon the web for php....
And yeah, I found your whole thing a bit arrogant, and it still feels that way. The offense was in your positing a need to determine which of us admitted females can program.
I don't like "webmistress" any more than I do "webmaster" (though I admit to using the latter for the town site I run, because we have some arrogant pompous males who are overly involved in the local patriarachal religion; they would crap bricks if they new I was female.... their peculiar blind bias means it never occurs to them to consider gender if presented with "webmaster"....)
| 11:49 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|I fancy Twist means something like: |
If looking back, you are a woman if i'm not mistaken. That is very cool that you are a programmer. In my computer science classes there were no woman past the first 101 class. I was curious if any woman out there were coders. You obviously are. Nice to know there are woman in the field. I'm just guessing by all the negative responses so far that there are far fewer woman that write code than make webpages.
*ps* Come to think of it, I went to a stupid microsoft party at the university of washington to celebrate the release of .net. They gave us all free .net discs, had a crappy band and gave away x-boxs. There were probably two or three thousand geeks there, including myself. It was about a 1 to 20 ratio between men and woman. That just tells me that there are woman out there that program and quite a few considering the amount of people there.
[edited by: twist at 11:58 pm (utc) on Dec. 7, 2004]
| 11:57 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)|
just because someone responded negatively doesn't mean they don't code. I do (a bit, anyway), and I still found it quite arrogant.
and you go to a school that's almost entirely comprised of female students- the number of women in tech-fields, including computer science, is going to be REALLY high compared to what you'd find elsewhere.
oh, and not to mention, your conclusion (that there are "far fewer woman that write code than make webpages") is a bit lackluster: the same's true for men.
[edited by: disgust at 11:59 pm (utc) on Dec. 7, 2004]
| 11:57 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|my computer science classes there were no woman past the first 101 class. |
When I was at University, computer science was not a subject, the degree I dropped out of was engineering. In my class of 200, 3 were women. On Friday nights we went on Vietnam war protests.
| 12:04 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|When I was at University, computer science was not a subject, the degree I dropped out of was engineering. In my class of 200, 3 were women. On Friday nights we went on Vietnam war protests. |
I took a couple of law classes and my teacher, who was a laywer, said that in law school there were so many more woman than men. Like a 10 to 1 ratio. He said woman in so many years are going to completely dominate in the attorney field. Makes me wonder if i'm going to get sued for asking if any woman know programming, lol.
| 12:47 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|... only people who write assembly language know how to program ... |
LOOP CMP.B #0,(A0)
FIN TRAP #0
MSG DC.B "Female webmasters all the waaaay",0
Motorola 68000, what a processor!
| 12:51 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|I'm just guessing by all the negative responses so far that there are far fewer woman that write code than make webpages. |
I have no idea, but I think that's a pretty shaky conclusion. I deliberately didn't respond to your initial code post. Although I understood the gist at a glance, I didn't bother to actually read the code or go back to it, because i didn't particularly like the tone I perceived in the post.
I understand you might have been asking the question in fun or out of plain curiosity... but that's not how it came across.
It came across as "PROVE IT TO ME".
This isn't a job interview. This is a social interaction between a bunch of people with related interests.
Much like at a party, if I spot someone at one end of the room who I think is being a bit boorish, I head for the other end.
| 1:29 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|... only people who write assembly language know how to program ... |
One reason I have never regarded my programming skills highly. Real programmers don't use high level languages. I've dabbled in assembler, but never really got into it. I used to know people who could punch B200 machine code onto punch cards, load the program direct from cards and have it run.
| 1:35 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
You know, this topic was going along so smoothly. Can we maybe get it back on track and let the girls continue to come out and introduce themselves. Look how many have come out of lurking. Also, look at the energy that this thread carries. Let's try to steer this one back on course.
Thank you in advance for your understanding. :)
| 1:40 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|my computer science classes there were no woman past the first 101 class |
I learned to code from a book and a website. I was an English major. Just b/c you don't see women in classes doesn't mean we can't teach ourselves.
As a matter of fact, I wonder if many women aren't pushed out of such classes by out-of-touch, older professors. My sister has a degree in aerospace engineering and she had no less than 3 different professors tell her she had no business there. Her grades were excellent, the problem was she was a woman. And they told her that flat out. She only graduated 3 years ago.
I think men frequently think that women are whining or over compensating for something men think is minimal. The fact is that there is still a large population (mostly older) men who can't see beyond the traditional roles for women. It's changing. We know it's changing. But that doesn't help when you are faced with deciding if someone is judging you on your profession or the fact that you are a woman.
| 3:07 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|You know, this topic was going along so smoothly. |
Couldn't have imagined the controversy the question would create and i'm not kidding. The thread was full of woman coming forward and saying they were webmasters, web developers, web designers or whatever.
I was curious, among the woman, which ones were creating simple websites and which ones were writing full blown server-side scripted database driven sites. To me its a world of difference. Anybody can pick up a "HTML for Dummies" book and be making websites in a day, thats how I got started.
I don't know how a post can have a tone, since it's just text. My post just shows that quite a few people, men and woman, consider themselves webmasters without any knowledge of programming. I guess to each his/her own. I guess since I have a camera and take photographs I am a photographer. I guess that wouldn't offend a person who spent years studying photography. So by all means, anybody who has a website please go around telling people you are webmasters. Credit to the woman who are programmers who create websites. Keep up the good work. Last post from me on the subject.
| 3:25 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|I don't know how a post can have a tone, since it's just text. |
Whoa, dude! Don't they make you take at least ONE literature class out there at U Wash? Show me text that DOESN'T have a tone and I'll show you half a grocery list, or, for that matter, a line of computer code.
| 3:43 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|Credit to the woman who are programmers who create websites. |
Your posts seem to indicate that in your view only "programmer produced" websites have any value, or can even be considered "true websites". Contrariwise, my personal view is that ALL websites which provide knowledge or products to those who seek them have value. The fact that some of them are produced by programming while others are not does not make either version inherently more valuable - nor does a website produced by a programmer using a programming language necessarily come with a guarantee of more traffic, more money, shorter load-time, ease of use - whatever one uses as a standard to equate to the term "successful".
I would be interested to discover whether you would have gone into this sort of involved convoluted attempt to devalue "simple" (that is, not produced through "programming") sites created by men as opposed to same created by women. I tend to doubt it. And practically every one of us (including some of the men) "heard" pretty much exactly what you "meant" regardless that it's text.... I would say that the quote above fairly well defines what you intended: an elitist attitude toward those of us who develop from the as you state "html for dummies" angle.
[Reminds me of one of the PCMag bigs who, back in the early 90s, stated in his column that "vanity sites" would be the death of the internet before it ever got started, they took up too much "room" and were of course of no value compared to the "important" work of the web. Of course, some of those "vanity sites" turned into killer money-makers, I believe....]
In any case, many of us who are members here as well as female run numerous sites (our own and those of clients) without calling ourselves programmers even if we do some programming, without naming ourselves webmasters, web developers, web designers or anything else. In many cases, I simply style myself a provider - I provide clients with a gateway to various things: income through sales of products; information dispersal; community; eternity in their minds with family genealogy sites. The important thing that we do is IMPLEMENT those gateways either through html for dummies or through programming, no matter what we call ourselves or what others call us - and certainly without regard to backhanded denigration.
| 4:01 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
i guess the thread will finish in a couple of years.....
| 4:24 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I'll fess up. Another woman. Another one woman band.
|I think that there are probably more women in the business than many people think. They just aren't as apt to make themselves known, is all. That is not a snap at either side, but many of us women, due to effects of traditional roles and whatnot, are still learning the art of networking so the men don't notice us as much. |
That's an excellent point hannamyluv. I truly didn't realise there were so many women at WebmasterWorld until this thread.
| 5:20 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Webmaster is a generic term that encompasses a wide range of skillsets, just like the term business person does. The point isn't how many women are coders or even geeks, so what's the fixation, Twist? Some of us are, some of us aren't, and some of us haven't said.
We're ALL webmasters, near as I can tell from the posts.
| 5:37 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
another female lurker. I specialize in XHTML/CSS - and yes, I code by hand. I probably would have gone in the programmer direction having loved math in school, but I hooked up with a hard-core open source developmer early on. That freed me to concentrate on the designer side.
| 5:43 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Regarding the term webmistress:
No one calls me Mistress without my permission. ::cracks whip::
Sorry - couldn't resist. <g>
| 6:48 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
We're ALL webmasters, near as I can tell from the posts.
A true "webmaster" would never refer to himself or herself as such.
As any true webmaster knows;
...you can't master something that constantly changes.
| 11:52 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
My stupid question created a debate!
I am so happy that I finally be able to raise an interesting topic.
| 11:57 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
it's not that I have all the time on my hands....but, this being an unique thread, I went through all the 15 pages so far & cmae up with this list...38 so far & counting....where are the rest?
pl forgive me for any errors...*S*
| 12:10 pm on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|The point isn't how many women are coders or even geeks, so what's the fixation, Twist? |
I hate to do this because I said I wouldn't post anymore but if someone is going to ask me a direct question I guess I should answer. Actaully, Triarii, that was exactly the point. As I stated many times, I was curious how many of the woman webmasters knew programming.
Another point that I guess I didn't quite stress nearly enough was the original snippet of code. If you were to go to a college and sign up for a progamming 101 class. After you finished the class you would be able to read the code. The code was neither a ego boost to me or a demeaning gesture to all woman. It was code that anybody with any type of programming experience would have easily been able to read. The fact that some took offense to the code by saying I was condensending to them only shows that they didn't understand the code well enough to know that it was actually pretty basic.
Once again, to clarify, as many have pointed out webmaster is a all-encompassing term. Programmer could also be a all-encompassing term. So instead of saying, who is a programmer, I tried narrowing the definition down a little by asking who knows basic programming. Instead of writing a lot of text describing what basic programming skills consist of I thought I would simply put some basic code down. A person who has programming knowledge would look at it and say yes, thats some pretty basic stuff. A person who hasn't learned programming would look at it and say, no I am not familiar with programming.
If you don't know programming and are upset that someone isn't taking your website/webmaster skills as seriously as someone who does know programming then you should learn programming or accept the fact that some people don't really consider you a web/developer/master/mistress/designer whatever. I am one of those people. I do not think a person is really a website developer unless they know programming. Which brings me back to my original point, I simply wanted to know how many woman were serious website developers and which ones were doing it as simply a hobby.
Like I said before, anybody can buy a camera and take pictures, but just because a person takes pictures doesn't mean I classify them as a photographer. I don't think people who own cameras should be offended that I don't consider them all photographers, it's just my opinion. Please do not be offended that I don't consider everyone that has a website a webmaster, it is just my opinion. Asking how many woman made websites was a pretty general question. Just as the original poster wanting to know more about woman who owned websites, I wanted to know more about the woman who were serious web developers. Thats it. I had no hidden agenda. I apoligize to those that chose to take offense to the question.
| 12:21 pm on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Well written Twist.This clearly explains your position without anyone able to take offense.
I, for one, am prepared to give you a big hug.(})
| 1:27 pm on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
There seem to be a lot of women dealing with link exchanges these days, which is fine by me.
I don't know if they are all completely responsible for the sites they work on though.
| 1:42 pm on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Phrash - wheel on your list is not female, FYI :).
I would never use the term webmistress. It sounds silly to be honest. You wouldn't call a female police officer an "officette". I actually don't refer to myself as a webmaster - its part of my job is all. I have a lot of other titles I would use before that.
| 2:12 pm on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|The fact that some took offense to the code by saying I was condensending to them only shows that they didn't understand the code well enough to know that it was actually pretty basic. |
no, some people found it insulting based on the principle of it. myself included.
if you introduced yourself as a programmer, and someone didn't believe you, and insisted that you prove yourself by jumping through hoops, wouldn't you be rather insulted?
it depends on the person I suppose.
|I am one of those people. I do not think a person is really a website developer unless they know programming. Which brings me back to my original point, I simply wanted to know how many woman were serious website developers and which ones were doing it as simply a hobby. |
hah, if you can't program it's simply a hobby? I know people of people that haven't dived into serious (or even basic) programming that're making a very, very nice living. apparently we don't define "hobby" the same way. ;-)
|The code was neither a ego boost to me or a demeaning gesture to all woman. |
you're stating it like it's a fact. it really isn't though: it DID come across that way to plenty of us, and surely plenty more that didn't choose to comment.
oh. and you missed me on the list.
| 2:30 pm on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Count me in. I've never posted here, but I've referred to info in these forums on a number of occasions. I've been a "webmaster" since 1999, when I completed a certification course.
I'm a "true" webmaster, even by Twist's definition. It says it on my business card, and I do all my own programming. AND I'm really, truly a female :)
When I go to industry events, I see a fair mix of genders there, though yes, there are more men than women. Not a bad place for a girl to be, really!
| 3:21 pm on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I'm a chick, and a web mistress... Lots of lady web masters where I'm from. In fact, my toughest competition stems from female run small businesses.
To me, it's not a male dominated industry anymore.... take a look at [digitaleve.org,...] [wiredwoman.com...] - just to name a few lady techie orgs.
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