| 5:58 am on Nov 28, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I've always kept a real good eye on Ink. My main site receives a hefty amount of Ink traffic from MSN and, even though it's non-PFI, so far this month Ink has grabbed more than 2,300 pages on a 1,500 page site, so it spiders if fairly well and fairly often.
But for now I'm going to wait and see what MSN does when it drops LookSmart results. That hefty amount of traffic I cited above is to secondary sections of the site. Right now the money terms are buried behind 8, 9, and 10 pages of Looksmart results.
So, for me right now it depends on which way MSN jumps: Are they going to replace LookSmart with something else (after all, it did produce some revenue for MSN)? Stay with a few Overture results and then Ink SERPs? Expanded Overture results? Or some model we haven't fathomed as yet?
Then Yahoo. They've been testing Ink here and there but I haven't happend to catch it yet so don't know how the SERPs are presented. Pure Ink? Ink with this? Or Ink with that? Are they going to stay with the current Ink PFI model or modify somehow? Is the Ink algo going to stay basically the same as it's been?
And, how the heck is Yahoo vs MSN going to play out in the first place?
And as for the big G and "once the searchers sense the downgrade of the quality of SERPs," well, as a searcher I've been disatisfied for sometime. G is still, for some reason I don't understand (again, as a searcher), still number one in the hearts and minds of most users. I guess most folks are actually used to not actually finding what they were looking for.
Just too many danged unanswered questions at the moment. One thing is for sure though, it's going to be a very interesting few months in the SE world, have to be prepared to roll with whatever is thrown at us.
| 6:20 am on Nov 28, 2003 (gmt 0)|
No offence, and a little off topic, but from a searchers point of view, I don't think the quality of the SERPS have worsened. I can of course only speak of the searches that I perform regularily and can see a difference. I like not seeing so much many spammed-out, useless pages and I must say, I think the SERPS are better after this last update.
| 1:04 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
>With all the junk that Google has pulled, whether your up or down in the SERPs, one thing's for sure is the quality of the SERPs in the last series of updates (which are still fuzzying around at the mo) have probably knocked google from the hearts and minds of many a webmaster, but once the searchers sense the downgrade of the quality of SERPs, blood will be smelt.
Google smells really nice and pleasant to this searcher.
| 5:32 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I'm with Caine on the Google serps.
Why do we know Y! is going with MSN instead of AV or perhaps even a mix of the two? Lately, the AV results seem to be improving more than anyones. For my sites, scooter is the most aggressive crawler around, followed by slurp.
| 5:41 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
The G changes may make Ink SEO incompatible. So choose your side: Are you going for betamax or VHS?
[edited by: martinibuster at 6:01 am (utc) on Nov. 29, 2003]
| 5:55 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
May be still regular searchers are thinking if google cannot produce good results any other other searchengine can not produce. (Like me, still some hope left that google wont break that trust that it built over the few of years).
| 6:36 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
"The G changes may make Ink SEO incompatible. So choose your side: Are you going for betamax or VHS?"
This is a good point. People have actually began to de-optimize their sites now so Google removes penalizations on their pages. I for one removed all my keyword densities.
Ink is very into keyword density and thus my Ink optimization has basically died.
However, since optimizing for Ink is a sure thing right now, and Google, well, no one knows how the hell to optimize for Google right now, I think I'll start doing some experiments, trying to get my pages ranked high on Ink.
That's the best this SEOer can do..
| 6:38 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Google has been so very good, for so very long, that I'm not ready to write them off just yet.
Mind you, at the same time I find myself reverting to ATW and others for my Christmas shopping. I can only handle so many Amazon and Ebay links sitting atop the SERPs at Google..
It's going to be an interesting ride in '04..very, very interesting...
| 6:50 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Will be working on both, but mostly focused on just making good sites for the end user. Things tend to taske care of themselves as long as some atention is paid to general SEO while building.
The last G update saw rankings drop for key (broader) terms but referrals have stayed about the same overall cause now more 3,4,5 word queries land visitors at the sites.
As for bad SERPs from Google, it all depends what you are looking for. There are some great affiliate sites out there that ad lots of value but its really annoying to do a search for something and have affiliate sites repackaging content from the original site taking up the top-20 or 30 ranks for a particular product.
If they make the SERPs really bad, everyone will stat clicking on the AdWords.
They've got to at least watch the correlation between updates and tweaks and the percentage of traffic that goes to AdWords.
| 9:05 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
>Ink is very into keyword density and thus my Ink optimization has basically died.
>I think I'll start doing some experiments, trying to get my pages ranked high on Ink
There are sites that hold positions in the top 3 listings in google and ink. I know of one in a competitive 2 word phrase that is no 1 in g & ink, before & after the g update began. Im sure there are sites like this in the search terms you watch, this may be a good place to start your "experiments".
| 9:20 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
|Things tend to take care of themselves as long as some atention is paid to general SEO while building |
Absolutely. The only thing I may have to change is to start adding META tags to my pages again ;)
I forsee a BIG jump in IP Delivery threads in the future, for the die-hard optimizers it may be the only way to get the best of both worlds. And let's face it, it's hardly rocket science to make sure that INK gets one version, G gets another and the USER gets one or the other...
Somebody, somewhere mentioned the death of the 40 page affiliate site. I think that's right, gone are the days when we can just churn out small, highly specific money term sites for G. This in my opinion is not a bad thing overall, if people are forced to build better sites then it can only improve the quality of info...
Why PFI? - Isn't it still quite easy to get in for free?
| 9:24 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
>> Mind you, at the same time I find myself reverting to ATW... <<
The advanced search feature at ATW is excellent. I use that rather than the main search.
>> Google has been so very good, for so very long, that I'm not ready to write them off just yet. <<
Surely they've written themselves off. And yes, it will certainly filter through to the general searchers, especially if there is a 'gentle marketing nudge' from other engines. It just takes longer for them to notice, as they don't focus so hard. They'll get there.
>> Are you going for betamax or VHS? <<
I think I'll go fo DVDs.
| 9:34 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
After speaking with a contact at Inktomi, it seems that Yahoo will drop Google and start to carry full Overture/Inktomi results sometime around January/February. As to the combination of ranking free (slurp) vs. paid inclusion vs. pay for performance listings, I unfortunately haven't gotten a definitive answer on that yet. However, I would think that the ranks would be from top to bottom: PPF, PFI, free (which coincidentially happens to be the order in which they make the most revenue).
| 9:47 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Hmm I warned of this back in May when the first google fiasco took place, do we see Google starting slowly to disappear over the horizon? Have they become to big for their bo(o)ts?
I use INk now and have found that me traffice has around 4 fold in teh last 2 weeks, coincidence ? Maybe, jst have to wait and see.
| 11:16 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
If nothing else, this has brought the "eggs and baskets" issue to everyone's attention rather pointedly. There are ways around it though. One site for Google, one site for Ink and the rest. More sites if you want to just test the waters and let the chips fall where they may.
I intend to leave my site alone until after the new year and concentrate on building a few, very targeted sites while doing some serious belt tightening. My site is exactly what my customers want, (at least that's what they always tell me) ... so why mess with perfection.
A few classified adds in some industry magazines may help a little too. Man am I glad I closed my office and moved it back to the house before all this took place!
I think I will use the spare time I have right now to build a photo library for my site. I've never really had the time before. In fact, there is a regatta on today ... so I think I'll start there!
Gotta go ... the start line awaits! :)
| 11:18 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
>>However, I would think that the ranks would be from top to bottom: PPF, PFI, free
airpal, if they rank like that they'll need to have it very plain out there which are free and which are paid.
>>build a photo library for my site. I've never really had the time before. In fact, there is a regatta on today ... so I think I'll start there!
Liane, why not think about making a "non-commercial" informational site with a photo gallery, separate from the main site? That makes another basket for you to put your content in. Separate directory listings (free Yahoo), separate strategy. It can reinforce the other.
Couldn't something like that be developed into another revenue source altogether?
By the way, Ink "lost" a site months ago that always did well with them. Now that I'm getting Inktomi at Yahoo it's back in the SERPs there - it's in the Yahoo directory. Still not at MSN.
>>What you going to do come 2004? Stick with opto-ing for G or play G as second fiddle to Ink?
Ink full speed ahead. Always loved them, never had a bit of a problem (except the pages they lost on one site). The only problem I foresee, since I'm seeing Ink at Yahoo for a straight week, is what they're doing with the Directory sites in the SERPs. That'll be a killer to deal with.
Pages for Ink, sites for Google. I don't see why one excludes the other.
| 12:57 pm on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
personally - i think the only way forward is too build independantly for each of the major crawlers. And Inks PFI helps the situation. Two sites that are completely different and tweakable to its main SE target. Certainly from what i see 'one size fits all' solutions are out the window!
| 1:13 pm on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
|personally - i think the only way forward is too build independantly for each of the major crawlers |
I agree, if this is to become a 3 horse race, then all 3 engines are going to try and be slightly different to each other making the need for 3 different sites more important than ever.
What a ****ing bummer.!
| 1:15 pm on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Back to the days off real SEO -> BRING IT ON MATEY!
My skill set was getting a we bit stale!
| 1:58 pm on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I just got a email from inktomi, if I want to renew the listing, but no thanks there search results are just to bad on Inktomi.
| 2:33 pm on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Ink results are filled with so much keyword-hyphen-keyword-hyphen-keyword spam, I can't believe that Yahoo would consider switching to them anytime soon.
They would be handing Google the biggest gift possible if they do though.
Come to think of it, that's probably why they are testing the Ink results now. To see how many people leave their site based on the sad SERPS.
| 2:45 pm on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I think Ink maybe developing a new set off filters for yahoo, to differentiate the ink listings from those provided to MSN!
Does not stand to reason that both Yahoo and MSN, which both use overture, would also have exactly the same Ink feeds
| 3:05 pm on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I agree that Ink is now critical - what is bothering me - in the last week my traffic from MSN dried up:
Positions on MSN dropped from 1-3 to 30-50 (but remained the same as before on Pure Search)
Has anyone else experience a drop / change on MSN?
| 10:31 pm on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)|
|Has anyone else experience a drop / change on MSN? |
In fact, my rankings have actually boosted! My listings are (and always have been) relevant, and I'm higher in the SERPS as a result.
| 12:05 am on Nov 30, 2003 (gmt 0)|
My situation is that same as howiejs. This is not good
| 1:29 am on Nov 30, 2003 (gmt 0)|
|Liane, why not think about making a "non-commercial" informational site with a photo gallery, separate from the main site? That makes another basket for you to put your content in. Separate directory listings (free Yahoo), separate strategy. It can reinforce the other. |
Been there ... done that! My purely informational site which took 9 (very long months) to write got hammered by Google too. Its a complete loss. It was NEVER optimized from the get go and is as pure as the driven snow! I just wrote whatever came into my head and never looked back except to correct spelling.
Go figure? As far as I'm concerned ... other than serving a community service, it was a complete waste of time. However, it kept me from going mad for quite some time while I worked on my business site. I thought I was actually "achieving something" while writing it ... and that helped.
Even the "community service" part of producing that site ended up ,being a waste of time because nobody believed I did it out of the kindness of my heart ... WHICH I DID! It was a massive waste of time and energy. However, to this day and as a result of producing that site, I know more about the BVI than most BVIslanders! So all was not completely wasted! :)
|Certainly from what i see 'one size fits all' solutions are out the window! |
Couldn't agree more! Build individual sites for each and every engine. Grab your traffic where you can. Use different hosts, different owner names and completely different content. Its the only way to survive these days ... IMHO!
|Ink results are filled with so much keyword-hyphen-keyword-hyphen-keyword spam, I can't believe that Yahoo would consider switching to them anytime soon. |
And Google's results aren't full of spam? Would you like a few hundred real examples? I'd be happy to point out a few! How about some sites with keyword density in the 35% to 45% range which use frames and have yet to be detected by any of Google's filters?
I thought I was a sinful spammer at just under 5% in the most extreme case! Hell, some of my pages with 3% density have been relegated to the bottom of the pile! Those in the 2% or less density are "seemingly" doing O.K. ... for now anyway ... but who the hell knows where all this will lead?
I figure my time over this Christmas season is better spent making a photo gallery for my customers Its the one thing I don't have on my site which I am constantly asked about.
I truly don't care if it helps or hurts my site one iota. I am doing it for my clients and to keep myself occupied while Google does whatever the heck Google is doing.
My time will be better spent doing something constructive rather than trying to figure out what Google are trying to accomplish. I'll leave that part to you folks. I don't have a clue and am not smart enough to come close to the ultimate answer.
I have been driving myself crazy with worry trying to figure out where next month's rent will come from ... but I'd rather just get on with my life and pretend for the next 6 or 8 weeks that what Google has done won't affect me in the long run. Its the only way I am able to keep functioning with any semblance of sanity.
After 10 weeks ... if nothing changes for the better, not much will matter. I will be out on the street again. Google doesn't owe me a damned thing. WebmasterWorld, Brett, Dave several other members here and Google made my life a lot easier for a couple of years ... and for that I will be forever grateful. Its been a wonderful experience.
In the meantime, I will do what I can to add quality to my site, throw up a few smaller and more targeted sites for some of the other SE's and see what happens.
If that isn't enough ... oh well! Its not like I didn't try and that I didn't have a lot of help from a lot of wonderful people. WebmasterWorld is the cats pajamas! It kept me from being homeless and hungry for a very long time. My time may have run out ... I certainly hope not. But we'll just have to wait and see.
If worse comes to worst, I think I could find a job here working for someone else. That wasn't a possibility a few years ago when everyone at WebmasterWorld first got to know me. Now at least, many more people in my indutry know me here, so all is not lost.
For the rest of you, I can only keep my fingers crossed that you are much better at this game than I and are able to hang on through the rough patches longer than I can. This search engine thing is a very stressful way to make a living. I'm not entirely sure it was meant to be ... for me at least.
Any sugar daddy's out there who want to learn to sail in the most wonderful climate in the world? I am a very patient instructor and I never, never, never yell!
I might whimper now and again ... but yelling is not my thing! :)
| 1:41 am on Nov 30, 2003 (gmt 0)|
"After speaking with a contact at Inktomi, it seems that Yahoo will drop Google and start to carry full Overture/Inktomi results sometime around January/February."
This is very good news indeed! However, I have a feeling whoever told you this will get axed for confidentiality purposes. It's pretty big news!
"Ink results are filled with so much keyword-hyphen-keyword-hyphen-keyword spam, I can't believe that Yahoo would consider switching to them anytime soon. "
Well, the alternative for webmasters is Google. And since no one knows how to optimize for Google right now, google SEOing has effectively stopped. I can't get my homepage listed on Google SERPS for my keywords no matter what I do, and many people are finding the same problems.
And you don't like keyword spam? How about those hundreds of stupid ****ing annoying amazon links on every search term right now? What the hell is that all about?
People have begun to dump Google as a reliable STABLE search engine and switch to Inktomi b/c everyone needs stability. Webmasters especially.
| 6:05 am on Nov 30, 2003 (gmt 0)|
Here are some thoughts.
As I mentioned before I am finding alta vista's results to be far superior to ink's. Why wouldn't Y! go there?
And now for the biggest conspiracy theory yet. Google, MSN, and Y! are all in this together. In fact, Google's relevant search results were the only thing keeping ALL of them from raking in the cash. Who is the biggest winner with the Florida update? Adwords? Maybe in the short run. In the long run it will be Yahoverfasta. Think about it. If you were burned by Google's new algo, are you going to turn to adwords for help? Or are you going to look for a non-Google alternative? Me, I'm already looking for an alternative to the adsense served on my sites. Why would Yahoo even consider dropping these results when they create such great revenue potential?
| 6:09 am on Nov 30, 2003 (gmt 0)|
I love all this talk about Google dying the death of a thousand cuts, but here's some sad facts for ya...
I run an informational site about a sport. Of all sites on the web re. this sport, mine is the 3rd largest / most visited site. The two largest belong to official organizations and have yearly budgets that I could only dream of. Everyone at these two larger sites knows my site and they've even had me do some work under contract for them.
I have a very unique domain name that's not used anywhere on the web except in ref. to my site.
When I search for my domain in Overture, which Inktomi claims to power... no actual page straight from my domain site is in at least the top 80 results... There is absolutely no argument that my site is not the most relevant for my domain name.
THAT.. is laughable. That is a joke of a SE. And that will never take the place of google, which come up with 38,400 results, including 28,000+ pages cached from my site.
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