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This 146 message thread spans 5 pages: < < 146 ( 1 [2] 3 4 5 > >   posting off  
did Ink. change their algorithm

 2:42 am on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have been doing well with Ink. on a pile of keywords - today my pages are still indexed but my SERPs are gone. Have they changed the algoritmn?



 8:53 pm on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

I too lost a bunch of decent rankings in MSN.. I contacted Inktomi about this, after discovering that no mention is made anywhere on MSN (USA) about Inktomi or Position Technologies. Only one option for submitting... and that is through LookSmart.

My email to Inktomi:
I discovered today that on the MSN directory (USA version) there is only one option for submitting a site into their directory... which was LookSmart.

It appears MSN is looking for more cash flow. No mention of hint of Inktomi appears anywhere....

If this is just a "test marketing" of something new... I guess we will see what happens. If not.. it would be misleading for your website to reflect that paid inclusion through Inktomi results in a paid inclusion into MSN.. at least in the USA.

This was the response I received:

MSN currently uses Looksmart for listings under "Web Directories". MSN uses Inktomi for listings under "Web Pages" which follows "Web Directories" in a search result.


Boy, what a terrific, revealing response from the friendly folks at Inktomi. I guess there is no reason to keep submitting sites to Inktomi. Ironically, Inktomi is behaving "LookSmart-ish" in that they are not announcing anything... just keep collecting fees... until "much later."


 9:01 pm on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

This [submitit.bcentral.com] still worked about a week ago... Listing time is still probably 8-12 weeks or longer as it's always been.


 9:17 pm on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

To add to the MSN / Ink. confusion : [webmasterworld.com...] - LookSmart is toast with MSN as well?

>>>>>I guess this means their spider is ready<<<<<<<

Maybe this is the answer.


 11:45 pm on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

(re: 10-14 day refresh cycle)...do you have a URL for this, please?

From the Inktomi web site [inktomi.com].

Index freshness is a reflection of the frequency of updates to the search index. Fresher results mean more effective searches, reflecting the most recent changes, and fewer dead links. Inktomi Web Search refreshes the entire index every 10-14 days and paid inclusion content every 48 hours.


 8:13 am on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Ink. indexed another 4 pages (not PFI) from my site - I dominate keywords from those newly indexed pages in MSN India. MSN USA why do you forsake me?


 9:13 am on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Here is my experience of being demoted from MSN but still high in pure inktomi. I think it has to do with the fact that I recently submitted my page but I will mention the details in case it helps us to figure out what is going on.

I submitted a page to inktomi through PT in the middle of September. Shortly after I was receiving traffic from MSN until then end of the month and then it all vanished at the start of October (no msn referrals as of 10/1).

Before October started, my rankings on MSN and pure inktomi were the same and then the MSN ones just dropped (i.e. for one keyword I went from #1 down to #60 and now down to #120) but my rankings are basically still the same on pure inktomi (i.e. still #1 for that one keyword). The listings below me on pure inktomi still match up with MSN . . . except for me:(. I think it might be that I recently submitted. (Note: my pure inktomi results also match up with MSN India.)


 4:17 pm on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Anyone know whether theres much call for getting high in search engines in India, I got one client but thinking of packing my kids and husband up and shipping over there to start the countries first MSN India SEO practise as MSN.com forsakes me also....or has this already been done :)


 5:48 pm on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

OK, I've done some more checking- looks like Inktomi PFI sites submitted prior to May 1, 2003, are doing just fine in MSN, while most (but not all) more recent PFI inclusions have gotten the whammy. No rhyme or reason for the more recent sites that didn't drop... looks like about one out of every 12 or so is still ranking high in the SERPs, while the rest, all still indexed, have dropped from top 10 positions to 100-500 positions. Gotta be a pattern- I'll keep looking.

Meanwhile, it looks like the MSN index got bigger, too... most searches today look to return about 15% to 20% more pages than they did five months ago.

My newer sites are sure missing that MSN traffic... Unless Yahoo starts using Ink soon, this may be painful.


 4:12 pm on Oct 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

Put a load of urls into Ink' via PFI the other day...

ranking well in Pure Search

the URLs are included in MSN (tested using advanced search on my domain only searching for *).

but NO rankings to be seen.

Will be waiting to see what happens here before I submit any more.


 4:23 pm on Oct 8, 2003 (gmt 0)


It could be that you have an editorial action against your domain at Inktomi. Keyword stuffing, doorway pages, link farms, and other things of that nature cause editorial actions.

And don't think Inktomi wont penalize you if you're on PFI... I learned the hard way :(



 4:40 pm on Oct 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>>>>Keyword stuffing, doorway pages, link farms, and other things of that nature cause editorial actions<<<< I do not even know what a doorway page is, link farms - no, keyword stuffing - no. I think it is something to do with sites recently added to Ink. as that seems to be the common factor. My sites do well in pure Ink. searches it is HotBot and MSN where all the sites in this thread are ignored.


 7:32 pm on Oct 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

Guys - I lost two sites completely - one PFI on August 8th - totally lost rankings.

Another, that got crawled for free three weeks ago, gone.

Glad to see I am not the only one or I would be nervous. Looks to be a blip - hope it gets corrected ASAP.



 11:42 pm on Oct 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have the same problem. One of my sites ranks very well with Inktomi, but when I used HotBot I don't see it anymore listed... I will see if Lycos Insite team have anything to say



 12:32 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

Is there anybody out there who's done PFI inktomi and has kept a good SERP listing in MSN for any length of time (over four months or so)? I'd really like to know if this is a problem for everybody or just a few... anybody?

MSN is the only reason anybody does PFI inktomi, the main reason at least...

epsrx - can you clarify, please?... what SE are you talking about when you say you rank well with inktomi, but not hotbot... search.positiontech.com? How do you rank with msn.com?


 12:34 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

martinibuster - thank you... I was searching inktomi.com for 'cycle'.


 1:55 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

OK ... I got hit also losing all MSN traffic starting October 1st. Keywords that I ranked #2-10 now rank 200-300.

I started PFI in June of this year.


 2:14 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

OK ... I got hit also...

How many links on your page?
Have you made any recent changes?
How similar are your pages?
How much original content do you have?
Do you have repetitive content near the top of your page?


 4:46 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

martinibuster ...

Basically it's an affiliate site with 50+ individual product pages. My home and one other page have a fair amount of original content but the product pages have very little. The keywords themselves are repetitive and they are throughout the product pages.

The only significant change I've made to the site in the last 60 days is that I've renamed one page. Both the new and old pages are still in the index although I deleted the old page from my server.


 4:49 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

The new page is identical to the old page except for the title, description, and name. I'm sure it would be easily seen (as long as they are both in the index) as duplicate content.


 5:07 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

Also, there was one other significant event recently. (Itís all coming out now) A site that had a link to me is showing up on MSN with my (old from about three weeks ago)home page title and description. The listing looks like this:

My Title
My Description

Iíve asked them to remove the link and they have.

One more thing I do want to add. I don't see any change in my ranking on Pure Inktomi. It's just MSN and Hotbot where I've dropped way down.

On the keywords I checked it looks like MSN (and Hotbot) are displaying Inktomi listings line by line except they are filtering out a small number of entries (based on what criteria, mine could be duplicate content?) and assigning them a lower rank.


 8:46 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

It looks like it might have something to do with the TLD to me.

I submitted a .info domain last week - now ranking in msn.co.in and pure search, but not msn.co.uk or .com.

A few days later I subitted a .co.uk, which ranks in pure search and now msn.co.uk, but not .com.

Would be intersted to know what's happened with .com sites.


 9:08 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

The geo-targetting knob has been turned up.

Try a search for "search engine marketing" on MSN.com .co.uk and .au (web page results). Compare those listings to pure INK on PT. Notice the huge differences.

This only started happening to this extent at the beginning of the month - although regional bias was there before.

You can see the same differences when checking on HotBot.com and hotbot.co.uk - geo-targetting is switched on there - as well as on bbc.com


 9:38 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)


I used HotBot and msn.com to search for my site using certain keywords. I no longer rank in the top results when searching using HotBot or MSN USA. But when I used the Inktomi pure search, I found my site in the top 15!

There got to be some filtering being done by HotBot and MSN...



 9:48 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

>The geo-targetting knob has been turned up.

Yes, i have been seeing some huge drops aswell on MSN.com & Hotbot.com, last couple of days and thought it to be the geo-filtering reason, and i did post the same in the thread


But i am not sure whether the geo-filtering is just based on the TLDs or is it also based on the hosting location of the site?

Many Thanks


 9:51 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

>The geo-targetting knob has been turned up.

Yes, I have noticed this too


 9:52 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

it seems to be purely on TLD to me as both my .co.uk and .info mentioned above are UK hosted

...which is poormans geo-targeting to my mind.

Google seem to have it licked with things like their "UK sites only" on google.co.uk, by comparison

[edited by: Adam_C at 10:37 am (utc) on Oct. 9, 2003]


 9:55 am on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

From the large number of EC posts are we to understand something is different across the pond to here in the US?

As far as I can tell everything is the same.

Please enlighten us poor USA SEO's as to what exactly is going down.


 1:43 pm on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

the site I'm referring to is US a hosted .com


 2:03 pm on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

It looks like sub-standard PFI is culled (happens all the time), and that recently added pages have been pulled (nothing new here either).

Ink continually adds fresh new free inclusions, gives you a bite of peach, then a month later let's you fall off the planet to see if you come back to do the PFI. At this point you can either wait it out (I don't know how long it takes) or PFI.

The geo-targetting looks like a new wrinkle- this is the first mention of it in this thread.


 2:09 pm on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'm inclined to agree about the geo targeting. Comparing Pure search with Hotbot or MSN, it's clear the country TLDs are being demoted.

But the IP filtering doesnít seam that accurate. Not all .com's hosted outside the US are affected. A site hosted in Holland has maintained it's positions. Another .com hosted in the UK is also still unaffected.

So is it just more difficult to filter by IP or is there more to this?


 2:14 pm on Oct 9, 2003 (gmt 0)

>The geo-targetting looks like a new wrinkle..

I got zapped on MSN.com and HotBot.com at the beginning of the month along with loads of other people and only noticed the geo-targetting when referrals from the .co.uk versions of INK driven sites went up. So only completed investigation within the last 48 hours - but I think it has been there since the beginning of October. Although I thought this may be the case earlier, it could have been a red-herring - now I'm pretty convinced this is a fact.

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