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This 146 message thread spans 5 pages: 146 ( [1] 2 3 4 5 > >   posting off  
did Ink. change their algorithm
LateNight

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 2:42 am on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have been doing well with Ink. on a pile of keywords - today my pages are still indexed but my SERPs are gone. Have they changed the algoritmn?

 

Polarisman

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 6:15 am on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

I noticed the same. My MSN referrals dropped dramatically today!

percentages

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 6:38 am on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

It all looks the same as usual to me :)

LateNight

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 6:50 am on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

Does Ink. have a policy against resellers and affiliate sites? I noticed in my industry they all seem to be gone today including my 200 page site.

percentages

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 7:03 am on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

>Does Ink. have a policy against resellers and affiliate sites?

Not from what I can tell....mine are still there. It is better than Google at spotting duplicate/similar content. It also doesn't like very large sites that don't have deep links....both of these are things to watch out for;)

SuzziJ

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 10:59 am on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

have seen a LOT of sites get moved way down for no reason whatsoever, it looks like there are loads of new spammy sites at the top....thoughts anyone?

DaveAtIFG

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 11:12 am on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

It seems to me this question is raised about every 4-6 weeks. Does anyone wanna do some searching back through earlier posts and see if we're looking at an update cycle?

And don't forget to let us know what you discover! :)

SuzziJ

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 11:55 am on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

well interesting one on this is that it was in fact the last 48 hour inktomi refresh that seems to have done this, BUT...if want to see something even more interesting...

the listings in the pure INK results at search.positiontech.com / Hotbot and MSN results are sometimes very different. Only for a few keyphrases and definately not all, but there is a difference.

I know all about LS listings etc. so dont worry its not them. To me its as if MSN is deliberatly leaving out results that are in the pure INK listings, and Hotbot is choosing some and not others. MSN is then adding loads of other crap.

After 2 years of submitting to INK this is the first time I have seen such a strange thing, but if its happening every 6 weeks please do tell me!

LateNight

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 6:17 pm on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have 48 pages indexed in Ink. - typically I get a 100-150 visits via MSN. Today 0 yesterday 3 - my pages are indexed , but ignored. WARNING - do not pfi with Ink.

928s4

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 9:34 pm on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yes, there has definately been a change. SuzziJ is correct; MSN and Inktomi Pure Search show dramatic differences, and just in the last 48 hours. I monitor dozen of phrases daily, and rankings for my clients on these phrases. My results have been pretty stable for over a year; suddenly I'm seeing huge drops in MSN, while Pure Search still looks great.

I'm still exploring the exact nature of the new algorithm, but it looks like sites that were recently included via PFI have all dropped. Most have few inbound links. It also looks like the importance of the Title Tag has diminished. I hope this is a temporary blip...

Mohamed_E

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 9:55 pm on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

I don't track MSN carefully, but today and yesterday they have been sending me the usual 10-12% of SE referrals. So any algo change has had zero effect (good or bad) on my site.

SuzziJ

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 10:42 pm on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

hey 928s4 whatever you find post it here please so I can see what you find out.

now dont you guys think im going mad or anything but I think its MSN.com and Hotbot.com pulling in a different INK feed.

Let me tell you why, I have just checked loads of ranks on MSN Denmark and India (we have a few clients out that way) and the results are the same as pure INK.

Do yourself a test, search for a few things and you will probably find your results are where they used to be on MSN.com....mmmmm.....and it gets weirder...About.com also pulls in the pure INK feed as well as many other INK fed engines.

The problem seems to be ONLY with MSN.com and Hotbot.com. Now my first thoughts were this; its an INK algo change (possibly Yahoo testing stuff with it) or MSN inserting some of their own stuff, but now I am thinking different and because with both MSN.com and Hotbot.com showing different results to MSN India etc. it might well be that they are either pulling in from a different INK database OR something is bust.

A site vanised from a number 3 listing in Hotbot.com in front of my eyes this morning when I refreshed the page! Weird stuff but one thing is for sure....I DONT LIKE IT ONE BIT!

Go knock yourself out, check your positions at:

[msn.co.in...] for pure INK!

LateNight

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 11:44 pm on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

SuzziJ,
You are right MSN India is showing my normal Ink. SERP's. Now all I can hope is Bill gives his head a shake and puts things back in place - this experiment is costing me. Its Kraft Dinner tonight.

sabai

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 11:55 pm on Oct 2, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'm seeing the same thing for most of my keywords based on PFI inktomi pages. Was as stable as a rock up until a few days ago... for hotbot.com, search.positiontech.com, search.msn.co.in I keep my top tens, but for msn.com I am moved onto the second page or not there at all... a real shame because I get a good converion ratio from MSN. I don't like this at all...

The sites pages showing above me all have better incoming links... I hope that isn't all this is down to, but would like to know either way. I don't think this is a glitch...

MSN have their own bot out there now - could this be the start of results from it?

Polarisman

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 1:40 pm on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

Sure enough, I checked my rankings on [msn.co.in...] and they were as they used to be on MSN!

Now I'm not as concerned about the Yahoo switch but I sure would like to get my old MSN rankings back.

For the first two days of October my referrals from MSN have dropped by 80%.

928s4

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 10:26 pm on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hmmmm.... so far it looks like sites that have been in Ink about eight months or so are mostly OK, but the more recent stuff has been hammered hard.

Example: For the search "city state widget", a client site was #1 in the SERPs at MSN the day they were included via PFI. They have bounced between #1 and #3 over the last 90 days. This search returns about 150,000 sites. On Oct. 1, the site dropped to #471 (yeah, I looked hard to find that one). There have been absolutely no changes of any kind to the site. In the Ink Pure Search, it's still #1.

This is not unique; in fact this is exactly typical of about 20 other client websites I checked. All are unique, no spam, no crosslinking, no hidden text, nothing. All squeaky clean, hosted at different servers, unrelated. The only thing they have in common is PFI inclusion in Inktomi (through 2 different resellers) over the last few months. As I said, the sites that have been in for over eight or so months seem fine.

So, what is MSN up to.....?

sabai

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 11:45 pm on Oct 3, 2003 (gmt 0)

I found the time to look more closely at the SERPs, comparing msn.co.in with msn.com - the results are nearly the same, but with with some pages dropping down the rankings and others moving up to fill the space in the same order as before. I am not seeing any new ones in their place, having looked at about ten less competetive keywords.

I think that whatever the algo change is, it is some form of penalisation, otherwise the order of the results would have changed. Check your pages for anything that might be wrong with your pages that were dropped down.

Please everybody don't shout at me at once, but one of the things I did on a few of my pages was to have ★ stars in my titles - I knew it would not last forever, but it is something which really stands out in a SERP. The debate as to whether or not this is spam has been covered already... anyway, I saw a few pages with HTML characters in the meta description, so this could be one thing that is being penalised... HTML characters in the description, or title.

I took the stars out and I'll post the results in a few days - a lot of people complain about PFI inktomi, but I love the fact that I can make a change and see how it affects the ranking about three days later.... I don't think it's possible to achieve that with free inktomi.

LateNight

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 3:52 am on Oct 4, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have an idea it is something to do with new PFI sites. I had a fancy bullet, but sites without a cheeky title seem to be missing as well. Did anyone in this thread have character free titles? or how many had cheeky a title.

martinibuster

WebmasterWorld Administrator martinibuster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 4:43 am on Oct 4, 2003 (gmt 0)

Let's give it a couple days. They could be integrating new sites into the index. I had a brand new site make it into the index, and now it's not showing for it's name, although the websites that link to my site show up.

Beforehand, Ink used to show my "about us" page. My pages still show up for the domain.com search.

My other well established sites, pfi and non-pfi are still in there, so I'm wondering if it's some kind of dance with new sites getting integrated. Just a hunch.

Ink updates it's non-pfi index every 10-14 days. Let's wait and see.

sabai

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 6:16 pm on Oct 4, 2003 (gmt 0)

I saw a few pages that were penalised with plain text titles, and nothing obviously wrong with the page either. I noticed one which had
untitled
for a title... possibly they are trying to tidy up the look of the SERPS.
steve40

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 8:17 pm on Oct 4, 2003 (gmt 0)

have just checked pure ink against msn and if anything all pfi pages i was paying for have as good as dissapeared , could be cleaning house ready for yahoo but from current results as ink runs out will not renew url's
also has anybody noticed that search on pure ink looking at last modified the dates seem very suspect

SuzziJ

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 7:30 pm on Oct 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

the thing is with this one like was said before is that other MSN engines (foreign) are still pulling from pure INK so it would seem that any changes being made are from the MSN.com side only.

as stated by others it does seem like those just on the 48 hour refresh are affected. ive got a couple of hundred sites in through positiontech, i would say a good 60% have dropped down so far i cant see them, but again only in msn.com, no other ink engine.

each has almost identical criteria, and defo no spam of any sort whatsoever so its looking stranger and stranger.

i have got a big feeling that this is gonna stay the same tho and isnt gonna refer back. ive posted through a couple of new sites to INK today but have changed a couple of things with the pages to see what happens...keep posting though guys..(I AINT GONNA LET OLD GATESY WIN!)...i will get my sites back up if it kills me.

martinibuster

WebmasterWorld Administrator martinibuster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 11:13 pm on Oct 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

so it would seem that any changes being made are from the MSN.com side only.

No. Check Hotbot.

sabai

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 12:26 am on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

When I checked last time my hotbot results were the same as before... last time I checked was two days ago. Now they are the same as MSN... This change went through later than MSN, for the keywords I check at least. I'm guessing we'll see the change everywhere before to long. I do hope not though.

LateNight

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 2:32 am on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

My HotBot SERPs are the same as my MSN - gone. Does anyone one have connections with the PFI sellers - MarketLeap etc. or Ink.? It would seem they should provide some answers as MSN is main selling feature for Ink. PFI. Maybe if I send a letter out to Mr. Bill I can get some answers or take a road trip to Redmond.

onedumbear

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 3:03 am on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have noticed that special characters in the title tags now display correctly in MSN search results. The special characters still do not show properly in pure ink results.

martinibuster

WebmasterWorld Administrator martinibuster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 3:10 am on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

I think that the PFI issues may be different from what we are seeing here. Some of the PFI issues go back to last month. See this post where a few PFI'ers (not many) complain of being dropped from the index, I've fallen and I can't get up [webmasterworld.com].

Those people were organizing an action to call the president of PT about the issue, but they haven't posted anything here so probably nothing came of it.

Another thing to note is that there aren't large numbers of PFI people complaining about an "algo change" so it's pretty likely something that isn't affecting sites that have been in the index for a long time, or PFI in general.

martinibuster

WebmasterWorld Administrator martinibuster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 3:36 am on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

If you go back through the PFI Forum you'll see an Intomi update schedule emerge that seems to keep to a 10-14 day cycle, just like Inktomi says on their website. Interesting to go back and re-read the previous posts to help one understand what is going on and help avoid needlessly spinning your wheels month after month.

August 31, 2003
All my pages dropped from Ink except PFI
What is the current Ink update cycle?
by Callanish
[webmasterworld.com ]

Around the middle of August there were several reports of heavy Inktomi bot action, but no complaints about an update.

July 14, 2003
Has Inktomi dropped adult websites?
my inktomi sites in msn gone
by irishdude
[webmasterworld.com ]

July 1, 2003
2 totally different Inktomi's?
Today switched back to old results
by littlecloud
[webmasterworld.com ]

June 28, 2003
Inktomi Update
looks like a pretty big one
by littlecloud
[webmasterworld.com ]

June 18, 2003
PFI Site gone from INK
this is the second time!
by textex
[webmasterworld.com ]

sabai

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 8:28 pm on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

Removing the HTML stars in the title did nothing to improve the ranking. Had been aiming for several keywords with each page to get the maximum hits/$, but have now optomised only for my main keywords and have now moved back onto the first page... not so high as before, but back in the top 15 at least, although these are not competetive keywords so 15th isn't a such a great achievement.

10-14 day cycle, just like Inktomi says on their website
- martinibuster, do you have a URL for this, please? I can't find it anywhere on their site, neither can google.

Let's try to get to the bottom of this - I paid for my inclusion with Positiontech at the start of June... anybody else?

This isn't a freshness thing like google does, because I have changed the pages many times in the past...

LateNight

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 2303 posted 8:51 pm on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

It would seem the common factor is that all the sites/URL's are new. I submitted 14 Ink. PFI url's via ScrubTheWeb/Trellian - the first on July,19 and the most recent August,15. They were all doing well on MSN and now I can't even find them uncompetitive, obscure MSN searches. I had this happen for a couple days before - they did not even register as being indexed by Ink. However, this time they show as being indexed but been missing in the MSN SERP's since exactly October1.

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