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  posting off  
I've fallen and I can't get up...
and I don't know where to turn.

 8:50 am on Sep 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

OK. Let me preface this by saying, I have never even used one "trick" to move up in the SERPs. My index page (like all my pages) is perfectly clean and always has been. It's simple direct and to the point. I am ranked in the top 3 for all my important keywords in google and every other mentionable serch engine (except one).
You see where I am headed with this?... One day about 4 months ago, my index page www.*my-site-here.com dropped from #1 ranking to "nowhere to be seen" in the Inktomi search results. My index page didn't even show up in a search for my sites name...and it still doesn't.
The index page was actually with paid inclusion at the time of the drop and still is, but it doens't show up anywhere unless you search for the exact url with the http:// etc.
I've had positiontech people look into it. No help. They called Inktomi and ink said that the site didn't have any manual bans or penalizations.
There's got to be something wrong and I know that my index page is getting penalized, but I can't figure out why.
I am willing to try anything to get back to where I was. My positiontech rep said that "perhaps Ink is treating one of your other pages as your homepage."

1. Does any one here have any suggestions or what I could do?
2. Is there a way to tell a search engine which page is your index page (besides naming the page index.htm?

[edited by: heini at 8:55 am (utc) on Sep. 12, 2003]
[edit reason] Please see sticky mail / thanks! [/edit]



 10:36 am on Sep 12, 2003 (gmt 0)

Same thing....

check it out:


 10:32 pm on Sep 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yes, you have my sympathy, the same thing happened to me too.

Inktomi is now constantly purging sites (free inclusion) and demoting sites (paid inclusion). Very few people ever get their traffic back.

I lost a 500 page site (and two years work) a few weeks ago.


1. Don't ever pay Inktomi a lot of money for paid inclusion. If you get demoted there is nothing you can do to recover, since you will never know the reason. And they keep your money.

2. Don't put all your effort into one large site. Several smaller ones will spread the risk.


 6:28 am on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

Uggggggg..... not the news I wanted to hear. This is ridiculous. I can't stand INK! Why in the world would Yahoo use such a horrible company?


 7:36 am on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

>Why in the world would Yahoo use such a horrible company?

Reason #1....they own it.

Reason #2....Ink results are actually very good for "important" sites...they are not so good for sites with very few incoming/backlinks.

Ink delivers very good results for most search terms, occasionally it screws up on less popular phrases.....but so does Google, infact Google to a much greater extent!

Yahoo....roll those Ink results....they are good for 99.5% of folks, and that is about as good as it gets!


 10:46 am on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

"they are good for 99.5% of folks"

Where in the world did you get that number from?

I am involved in some of the most competetive indistries and my INK results are junk!
Doorways, redirects and expired domains in top 20 of SERPS.


 5:36 pm on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

All I see in my industry are doorway pages, redirects, keyword stuffed nonsense and other junk. It's completely laughable that a site like mine (completely clean and always has been) would be demoted when everybody else in my industry is either using doorway pages, or hidden text etc. We were the only ones playing by the rules. It's just another example of how bad Yahoo/Ink are.
Yahoo owns Alltheweb and AV too. Why would they choose INK over ATW and AV? It's not because INK shows more relevant results, that's FOR SURE. It's because INK has a good number of merchants paying for inclusion. It's ALWAYS about the quick $ for Yahoo.
99.5%? Could you show me some back-up for that claim? I'd love to see it.


 5:41 pm on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

It's not about relevance. It's about the money. Remember CASH IS KING!


 5:49 pm on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

Inktomi is now constantly purging sites (free inclusion) and demoting sites (paid inclusion).

Wait a sec, that doesn't make sense.

  • Free inclusion sites are purged.
  • Paid inclusion sites are demoted.
Who does that leave at the top, spammers? Sorry, but that's clearly off the mark.

I think some people have to take a step back and view this objectively. The Ink serps are not pages upon pages full of spam. They are very relevant results.

Just because your pages don't rank well in Ink does not indicate there is something wrong with Ink, just like if you jump into a swimming pool and sink, it doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with the swimming pool.

No offense, but viewed objectively it is far more likely that there is something deficient about the way your site is laid out.


 7:22 pm on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

If you would like, I will sticky mail you one of my demoted PFI inclusion sites.

All of my work is squeaky clean. I don't spam in any way.

I am not whining that INK is full of spam and is irrelevant for SERPs. However, as mentioned, I am involved in some very competetive industries and I am seeing a doorway page, two redirects/cloaked pages, and one expired domain in top 20 results. Yeah, the other 17 results are pretty good. Just making a point.


 7:43 pm on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

Lets get back to the issue at hand for a moment.
I agree INK is generally not worse than Google in competitive fields. That's of course open to debate, and I know many people will disagree, for reasons, I believe, which are not always related to objective judgement.

The point of this thread however is pages and sites dropping off the index.

Google also drops sites and pages, and not always for easily understandable reasons. Remember the large debates about vanishing index pages?

In Google's case inevitably technical reasons, glitches, are made out as culprits.

With Inktomi, people will always suspect it has to do with paid listings.
If a simple PFI listing drops, it's in favour of XML feeded listings. If a free lsiting drops, it's in favour of a PFI listing.
Hey, Ink probably has glitches too... :)


 7:50 pm on Sep 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

I hope so Heini!


 12:30 am on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

I am trying to organize a conference call with Position Tech and a few webmasters who have had this problem. I'm looking for PT customers who have had disappearing PFI pages where the page is still there, but you can only find it if you search for the name of the url that you are paying for.

PT president Jim Stov claims that it isn't a ban or demotion of any kind, but he is wrong. I know that they are wrong for several reasons (including the fact that a PT employee let it leak to me that there was some kind of demotion and that there are multiple merchants calling with the same concern each day).

I want to get several webmasters / owners on the phone at the same time so we can leverage our collective concerns and get Jim Stov (President) to get somebody at Inktomi to get us an answer. I have organized this type of effort before and it worked well with other companies (Including Yahoo... yes, even Yahoo). If you are interested in getting in on the call, please sticky me.


 8:37 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

I've already spoken to PT. Save yourself the aggrevation, don't bother.
They won't give up any info or give you INK contact info.


 10:17 pm on Sep 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

I have also had my listings drop in INK for my genealogy site that is listed in the top 10 of 90% of its keyword phrases. I was also told by the company that I went through {Marketleap} that once you get demoted by INK, that there is no coming back. I'm glad I only submitted 10 pages and not 40 pages or more! They need to fix this problem.


 4:07 am on Sep 18, 2003 (gmt 0)

By now it must have become obvious to the PFI companies that Inktomi is dealing a death blow to their business.

There must already be hundreds of webmasters who have now been burned by this rampant demotion, who were formerly willing to pay a lot of money for inclusion.

When it becomes generally known that Inktomi can make an arbitrary decision to demote your paid pages and will NOT TELL YOU WHY then PFI is too much of a risk for medium or large sites.

At least we can build new sites and hope Google likes them. The PFI companies can only watch their whole business model disintegrate.


 4:02 pm on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

>I am involved in some of the most competetive indistries
>and my INK results are junk!
>Doorways, redirects and expired domains in top 20 of SERPS.

Most of the time, I find Inktomi is pretty good, and I have been using their PFI for almost two years with great success.

This week, though, I have had hundreds of pages across several domains totally demoted in MSN.com and in Hotbot. Very frustrating. My sites are clean, no spam. This happened before, but only for a couple of days, and now it has been over a week and I am starting to get concerned.

Here's an example of less than stellar results.
Search for: toronto locksmiths is MSN.com

One guy has 14 out of the 15 results. This one is particularly obvious because his phone number is in the title of most of his pages. The others are just pages of links, which largely consist of links to the same site.


 4:12 pm on Oct 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

I wonder if this is really or only a INK issue. It might well be changes in the way MSN is using INK.


 1:58 am on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

I saw the same results for 'toronto locksmith' in PT's pure Ink search, so that tells me it's not MSN mucking up the SERPs.

I think Ink depends too much on human editorial review/booting of spam sites and can't keep up with it. Boot one big spam site today and it comes back in the form of ten little spam sites. Call it cyber-mitosis.


 2:05 am on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

What I don't understand is how Ink can list this way and no search engine is trying to stop them, or curve their way of listing websites. Yahoo must know of the problems webmasters are having. Then again has anyone even contacted Yahoo or any other search engine that uses INK to complain? I know I complain a bunch, but I haven't written any emails. Does anyone know of webmasters that have contacted the search engines?


 3:20 am on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Does anyone know of webmasters that have contacted the search engines?

Yes, me. Ink emailed me back because they couldn't see the spam I referenced,

...position #2 is a subdomain hallway page (spamdomain2.com), it has hidden links to dozens of pages of links, it has a disclaimer that says, oops you've reached our test server please follow this link to our real website..."

Blatant stuff.

I gave them an "A" for diligence, "A" for effort, and an "F" for their ability to wipe out this particular form of spam.

I just checked and it currently still exists eight months after I reported it, (duplicate pages of minimalist content on subdomains: spamdomain2.com/widget1.htm and spamdomain3/widget1.htm).

Now mind you, this isn't a competitor, I just reported it to see if they would actually do anything about it. Generally the Ink database is pretty clean, but they can't seem to get their algo around this subdomain spammer.


 3:48 am on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

Business Week has an article covering this fall from grace on Inktomi:


 5:35 am on Oct 7, 2003 (gmt 0)

That was an great news story about INK. Maybe they will change in the coming weeks.

No wait a min. advertizing money speaks louder then the webmasters. LOL

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