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Good on Google, bad on Inktomi
My site ranks well on Google, but not Inktomi
Beto_Stone




msg:19266
 5:44 pm on Dec 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

My site ranks first on Google for my keyphrase, but it can't seem to crack the top 100 on Inktomi. My content is targeted, relevant and plentiful to my keyphrase. The category has a few major players with lots of smaller, channel partners in fierce competition.

Only 5 sites link to my home page. My content management system is vignette.

Any tips or thoughts on how to improve inktomi rank would be appreciated.

 

nell




msg:19267
 8:38 pm on Dec 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Are you paying for Inktomi inclusion?

Beto_Stone




msg:19268
 9:04 pm on Dec 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

I used paid inclusion about a year ago for Inktomi. I also had a small Overture buy in place. Would press releases or site map do anything?

Shakil




msg:19269
 9:52 pm on Dec 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Beto,

Welcome to Webmasterworld, do not forget to read the Welcome Post [webmasterworld.com]

I think many other webmasters are in the same position as you are in terms of ranking at Google V others (including Inktomi, Fast)

I would love to be able to answer that question, however as a UK site, Inktomi have NO real traffic to give in the first place.

The only decent partner is MSN, however after MSNs own featured listings, Overture results, Looksmart UK and then Looksmart USA... there really isnt anything there.

I am sure a few other members on here do very well with Inktomi, and no doubt they will share their knowledge.

Shak

nell




msg:19270
 10:47 pm on Dec 15, 2002 (gmt 0)

Take one of your buried pages, make no changes, and pay for its inclusion via Positiontech. In a few days I expect you'll find the answer to your question abundantly clear.

mayor




msg:19271
 7:59 am on Dec 16, 2002 (gmt 0)

Pardon me for disagreeing, nell, but I don't think paying for inclusion will help your ranking at all in Inktomi/MSN.

Paying will get your paid page indexed but if it's already in the index then you don't need to pay for that purpose.

What paying does do is provide 48-hour refreshes so you can tweek your page to move it up in the MSN Web Pages results, hopefully getting a top position in the bottom tier of the MSN listings.

Beto_Stone, paying for one page gives you a tool for iterative optimization, but highly competitive areas are pretty well spammed out so you'll have to really fight your way up unless you pick some keyword combinations that are not competitive.

The best approach is to pick some non-competitive keyword phrases that are not buried by higher tiers (like Web Directory listings, sponsored and featured listing) and optimize for them. But don't expect a flood of traffic, and if you break Inktomi's optimization rules you might get your whole site banned.

veritysystems




msg:19272
 1:36 pm on Dec 16, 2002 (gmt 0)

Good stuff mayor? But what happens if you stop paying for Ink via one of its resellers? Would the page be removed from the index? Does anyone have any experience of this that they would like to share?

Beto_Stone




msg:19273
 3:29 pm on Dec 16, 2002 (gmt 0)

I have heard a lot about PositionTech in the past week, mainly b/c I went to the SES show in Dallas. Is their paid inclusion process any different from doing it myself? I have the time, plus a team of writers at my disposal. Any thoughts on working with Position Tech would be great.

nell




msg:19274
 4:00 pm on Dec 16, 2002 (gmt 0)

>I don't think paying for inclusion will help your ranking at all in Inktomi/MSN.

Wrong dude.

For one site we have over 1200 paid pages that have remained in the top 5 positions for months. There are another 800+ free pages that come and go. Sometimes they even outrank the paid pages but only for a few days. The free pages are, at best, unpredictable frosting on the cake.

bernd




msg:19275
 11:00 pm on Dec 17, 2002 (gmt 0)

Same problem.

Homepage No 1 at keyword on Google and not showing up at Inktomi, although I'm pushing it with PositionTech. INSTEAD Inktomi ranks some product pages that do not have all the Meta tags, but bad ranking as could be expected. PS: never spammed the engine.

Any idea why? Is there a regional/origin issue with Inktomi? Its a .com site but submited from overseas.

Thanks

mayor




msg:19276
 11:26 am on Dec 18, 2002 (gmt 0)

nell, are your 1200 pages going into Ink via the Index Connect data feed, or via the $25/page Search Submit?

nell




msg:19277
 12:45 am on Dec 20, 2002 (gmt 0)

They're on the 25 buck program. We started with a few hundred pages and worked up to that level as the customers wallet loosened. They all expire at different times. I can sticky you a sample page if you'd like to see it's structure.

Marcia




msg:19278
 1:22 am on Dec 20, 2002 (gmt 0)

>>>>But what happens if you stop paying for Ink via one of its resellers? Would the page be removed from the index? Does anyone have any experience of this that they would like to share?<<<

I do verity, and I'm glad to share it. I had a couple of pages in for a small site that expired last February and were removed and never renewed. In a few months they were back in - no changes made - and have been ranking as well as they were when they were paid for.

What I can say is different now is that when they were paid for there were only a few good inbound links, now there are a lot of links. But the ranking is no different, it's a bit higher now and actually couldn't be better at all.

The advantage with paying is, as mayor suggests, being able to tweak frequently, which I did when they were paid. Another important point is that while it's lucrative, it's not competitive and is not competing against those who do a feed.

I've got the same thing on another site, also expired last February. It's a pretty worthless listing, I can't imagine why people pay for those keywords, but it's doing better now than before.

These are NOT the same as competitive categories, I can't comment on those. I've done nothing more than low to lower_medium competitive stuff with Ink so far with paid. I like doing the paid for new sites, it gives a chance to work on the pages some right away and make changes frequently. I'll only do minor changes, never anything major all at once.

Optimizing for Ink isn't the same as for Google. Doing well with Google doesn't mean doing well with Ink, but from the limited amount I've seen, what's done well optimized for Ink also does well with Google. One is basically on-page, the other is more off-page, but put together, it seems to work for both.

stcrim




msg:19279
 4:13 am on Dec 20, 2002 (gmt 0)

Added:

Ink gives more weight to all the meta tags while Google seems to give more weight to the title only (plus a melting pot of other factors)

Most of thr pages I did thinking of Inktomi 2 and 3 years ago do great in Google...

-s-

menyak




msg:19280
 1:09 am on Dec 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

I sense people who actually KNOW how to optimize for Ink! True? - Now if you do know, maybe you could drop us lopsided, retarded Google folks a hint... ;)

Marcia




msg:19281
 10:36 am on Dec 29, 2002 (gmt 0)

menyak, it's not rocket science. It's pretty much the basics, which folks totally focused on Google tend to disregard sometimes, concentrating mainly on links, PR and link text. The difference between Google and Ink is that with Google the inter-connectivity between pages of a site and with other sites carries weight, so for Google you optimize "the site" as a whole, linking out and especially inbound links - plus the internal linking structure, paying particular attention to link text.

You can see that about Google by looking at pages that rank with the search words only appearing in pages that link to the page, not even on the page itself. That won't happen with Ink, you can't do that. It's Google's weighting of off-page factors that throws people off when making the comparison and trying to get the hang of Ink.

With Inktomi, while other factors enter into it, the concentration is primarily on the page itself.

[webmasterworld.com...]

>>Homepage No 1 at keyword on Google and not showing up at Inktomi

Homepages can be too generalized and not tightly focused enough. And sometimes they reflect keywords that are more competitive than interior pages, which would naturally be harder to rank for. The homepage may rank well with Google because of a boost from inbound link text and good PR, which won't work for Inktomi.

If a homepage is doing well with Google it doesn't pay to take a chance and fool with it, because of the amount of traffic Google can bring. It's better to experiment with a page within the site that isn't too critical to learn the ropes with.

[edited by: Marcia at 10:59 am (utc) on Dec. 29, 2002]

menyak




msg:19282
 10:53 am on Dec 29, 2002 (gmt 0)

Thanks, Marcia! :)

makemetop




msg:19283
 11:55 am on Dec 29, 2002 (gmt 0)

I think stcrim and Marcia have said it all really. It appears that most people now optimise for Google - I still optimise for INK and (as has been said) this works well, not only on Google - but the other crawlers too. So lots of on-page stuff which INK likes and then links from worthwhile sites with appropriate link text for Google. The two together make a pretty good 'one-method-suits-all' combination across the board.

Thanasus




msg:19284
 7:23 pm on Dec 29, 2002 (gmt 0)

For the record...

I had a page that consistently held a top 3 position for a competitive keyword. I let the annual renewal at positiontech expire in november. Not that page fell to about 220. The page didnt change at all, so clearly paying to play gives you some sort of advantage.

Realistically though, my top 3 position netted me virtually no traffic. It was buried after 4 pages of LS backfills on MSN. I'd receive about 500 - 800 daily visitors from my google top 3 placement for the same word. I would receive about 2 a week for my Inktomi placement. Crap - utter crap.

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