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Paid Inclusion Engines and Topics Forum

This 95 message thread spans 4 pages: < < 95 ( 1 [2] 3 4 > >   posting off  
Greetings from Inktomi!
Inktomi




msg:24768
 3:43 am on Aug 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hello all,

I know we historically haven't posted in these forums, but I thought it was time we de-lurked. This forum in particular seemed like a good place to start, since we pioneered the concept of paid inclusion.

From time to time I'll pop by to answer questions and maybe even ask a few of my own. Let me start by asking what we can do to be more effective at serving webmasters and content publishers. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Inktomi

 

Air




msg:24798
 6:01 pm on Aug 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

Thanks for that, it's nice to know that Inktomi is committed to their current partners and courting new and old ones.

>and we *never* exclude results that aren't PFI
A more granular explanation about this one would go a long way in setting minds at ease.

Napoleon




msg:24799
 6:47 pm on Aug 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

>> Our PFI program does not impact ranking, and we *never* exclude results that aren't PFI. PFI partners are assured that their pages will be listed and crawled frequently. Result quality and comprehensiveness are most important to us, and that's why ranking is based on relevancy alone. <<

This is EXTREMELY important... and exactly what I wanted to hear. If you remain consistent with that, and work hard at it, you will certainly be successful (and will deserve to be).

There is plenty of room in the market for search providers, and at the end of the day it is quality/relevancy that will differentiate them. It does sound like your organization has grasped this, which is good news for everyone.

web_india




msg:24800
 7:06 pm on Aug 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

You can remodel to have three types of inclusions :

1. Only Home Page - Free - Would help you in the long run and you'll win many webmasters from Google too :)

2. Internal Pages - Paid as of now.

3. Have another paid program at a higher fees which would help bigger sites have their hundreds and thousands (all) of pages indexed. You can charge anything in the range of 300 - 500 $ for this per site as normally bigger sites would also be ready to pay this amount for better indexing.

The loss you make from spidering home pages for free will be somewhat offset by the new paid program. However, free indexing of sites would help you to retain and increase your market share on a long term basis.

KMxRetro




msg:24801
 8:06 pm on Aug 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

How about having a "click thru level" based program.

For instance, to start with...all listings, inclusions and spidering are 100% FREE, as long as the webmaster agrees to the terms and conditions which are include...

If your website averages below 200 click thru's per month, we charge nothing.

If your website averages between 201-1000 click thru's per month over a three month period, we charge $xx.

If your website averages more than 1000 click thru's a month over a three month period, we charge $xxx

Some people are sure to disagree and say that this is making us pay for our site's success. I would counter that by saying that after the three month period, webmasters could pay, or lose their listing.

I'm trying to run my website as cheaply as possible, as it doesn't make any cash :) Therefore, I'm not going to pay Inktomi, Yahoo or any other company for that matter, any cash to list me in their engine, when I can get highly targetted free advertising elsewhere.

buckworks




msg:24802
 9:20 pm on Aug 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

<<we *never* exclude results that aren't PFI.>>

I might be more inclined to believe this if I could find ANY of my non-PFI pages in your index these days ...

littleman




msg:24803
 9:36 pm on Aug 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

How could you say #3 with a straight face?

Of course you have, all SEOs remember the games that were played with your database right before your pfi was launched. When you started the pfi program you flushed out all the sites that were not on your white list and let us know through the grape vine that the only way to get back in is to pay the pfi piper.

JustTrying




msg:24804
 10:35 pm on Aug 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

INKTOMI mentioned:

It is worth pointing out that the FTC letter expresses concern about PFI and PFP programs that affect ranking.

Therefore, we shouldn't realisiticly expcet any clarification on what results are PFI vs. Editorial. This same legal-ease postition will probably be taken by all of the other PFI programs as well IMO.

Then there was the statement:

...we *never* exclude results that aren't PFI...

If most of us here hadn't experienced somthing quite to the contrary in the "real world," this would be comforting to hear. Unfortunately, my experience has been that if you use the PFI program for even one page, the rest of the pages should not be expected to make their way into the database(s). Maybe there are others here that have had better luck, and this would be a good time for them to chime in with their experiences.

This is a great opportunity for Inktomi to "step up to the plate" and set the record straight.

You're probably feeling a little under attack right now, but don't worry, nobody bites as far as I know -- and, as far as the criticism goes, Inktomi has had a lot of time to build up, let's say, "feelings" relating to certain issues, but they are not directed at you personally -- It's just that how our sites rank or appear in Inkotmi partners is very important to us in here :)

P.S. Has Inktomi considered a search site where you can showcase your technology in a similar way as Alltheweb is to FAST Transfer? Why or why not?

P.P.S. I'd really be interested to hear if Inktomi plans to offer a "cached" version of pages that you have spidered -- for obvious reasons.

Grumpus




msg:24805
 1:47 am on Aug 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

...we *never* exclude results that aren't PFI...

I like the way he throw the third party vendor under the bus on this one while quoting some legal FTC mumbo jumbo. All I know is that every site I have ever worked on has all or at least a good number of pages in the INK database after simply waiting it out - EXCEPT, for the one I paid for. And yes, there WERE pages in the index that got dropped as soon as I opened my change purse.

I've seen that deal for sites with 1000 pages or more. That'd be possibly worth considering if I hadn't gotten shafted the first time. I don't see how you can ask me to hand you my walled when I feel like I already got mugged for my change purse?

I can say one thing for certain, the simple fact that you have third party vendors to pass the blame on to regarding this issue may seem handy now, but I doubt it'll pay off in the long run.

G.

Brad




msg:24806
 2:40 am on Aug 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

John 316 >Why don't you come out from behind the partnerships and brand your own engine(s).

Frankly, I would really like to see this. Just straight up Ink results in an attractive package for the general public.

DrCool




msg:24807
 2:44 am on Aug 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

One thing that would be nice is things like the keyword tool that Overture has. It would better help me determine if it would be worth it to make a page for a specific keyword and pay for it to be included.

garbageman




msg:24808
 4:18 am on Aug 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

I am relatively new to the SEO business, and recently submitted 3 urls to Inktomi. I do SEO work for a site that provide's an internet service: Draw Your Own Picture at Drawpicture.com (not an actual site). If I want to attract customers who also want to "paint" a picture or "sketch" or "watercolor" and I have thes features available on a single page, can i use different urls for each keyword directing the user to the same page? I am asking because keywords like "draw a picture" and "sketch a picture" will bring up significantly different results. So can I set up different url's, one for "draw" and one for "sketch" for the same page if the title on my page says, "Draw or Sketch your own picture"?

Pardon me, but I have read, and reread the guidelines, and lurked around in here, and am still a little confused as to whether or not this is legitimate practice.

Any advice would be appreciated.

gbgman

Marcia




msg:24809
 10:28 am on Aug 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

garbageman, those would be considered doorway pages, and the good folks at Inktomi have addressed that very specifically. It says on the page "Content Policy FAQ" but if you look at the html filename, it's their spam policy.

From Inktomi Spam Policy [inktomi.com]:

Q: Are "doorway" pages OK?
A: "Doorway" is a term for pages which send the user to a different page. Inktomi does not want doorway pages in the index.

Q: Is this a tightening of Inktomi's doorway policy?
A: Slightly -- the old rule was one doorway in the rare instance when the destination page simply could not be indexed. However we have found so few cases of this, and so many cases of abuse of doorway pages, that we simply don't want them at all.

Q: I want to be found under a wide variety of keywords. Shouldn't I create a doorway for every keyword?
A: Not at all...

Your reasoning is a legitimate and common concern, but it doesn't seem the same to everyone. If Inktomi has indicated a "slight tightening" you can more than likely consider yourself toast if you get caught, no matter how innocent the motives.

Your best bet would be to develop original, meaningful content around each of your phrases so that the pages have merit to stand on their own. Then, those pages can have a relevant link to another page.

hurlimann




msg:24810
 11:34 am on Aug 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

And from their PFI

Can I submit my Web site if it includes doorway pages?

"Inktomi will allow one doorway per destination. More than one doorway to the same page will be considered spam and may be removed."

I did this for a site that has indexing problems and spamcrusdaer came along and buried it.

I was not best pleased having paid for it and having complied with their PFI TOS.

Inktomi




msg:24811
 12:27 am on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi all,

Some really good thoughts, comments and ideas here. We're listening. Keep 'em coming.

Thanks,
Inktomi.

Marcia




msg:24812
 1:08 am on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Apparently outdated information:

And from their PFI
Can I submit my Web site if it includes doorway pages?

"Inktomi will allow one doorway per destination. More than one doorway to the same page will be considered spam and may be removed."

And here also at Verisign:

[webmasterworld.com...]

Whenever there's a major change there should be an update sent to partners right away. Then it's their responsibiity to update the information on their sites, since they're the ones who get the flack about discrepancies.

That would go a long way to fostering good webmaster relations. Webmasters actually represent a huge "un-commissioned" sales force for Inktomi; the average person probably doesn't have a clue, at least not most small business people.

ann




msg:24813
 1:19 am on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Welcome, Inktomi,

Listening is not answering....??????

korkus2000




msg:24814
 1:43 am on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

I think you guys have really made a great step in webmaster relations by opening a candid dialogue in a non-partial arena. Hopefully you are listening and considering these opinions. We really are your customers. We are the ones purchasing your search appliances and inclusion. Personally I have seen Inktomi's database clean up in recent months. It has been more relevant for searches.

I think the main issues I see is the price of total site inclusion is very expensive. If I could pay a fee to have my entire site included for one year and only update once a month(not the 24 hour update) for a small fee ($100 - $200) which would not endanger my free listings I would be very willing to sign up my clients. I think your services and price for 24 - 48 hour spidering per page is quite reasonable IMHO. If I have a page that needs that frequent update your service is great. But most pages don't need that. Only a few and to get that service is to kill your free listings.

Also a lot of pages don't really make much money, but those can be the most relevant pages for searchers. These pages should be added for free so Inktomi's database is useful for searchers.

Thank you for listening. Hopefully we can see Inktomi grow and stay a staple of the search world.

dauction




msg:24815
 4:06 am on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

INK..Is this Ineedhits association on the brinks?
stats that track visitors hasnt moved in a month on sites WITH traffic and sites that have been "optimised" 4 times still do not move at all(ranking wise)..very odd for a advert that claims 48hrs refreshes.

I understand you all dont gaurentee placement..but for a web site perfectly optimized to be on page 500 (under it's main keyword search)and then get nothing but canned email responses back as to why that is.. tends to make us turn our business elsewhere...

inwaaaytoodeep




msg:24816
 9:29 am on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hey,

Give these guys a break, seen their share price recently? That's enough to taint even the most beautiful of days!

As for people appearing in the low end listings probably had a domain banned. Problem is people cloak the hell out of Inktomi. Check an old forum thread here when Inktomi added another spider IP and caught everyone out. It'd be a sad situation if Inktomi dropped out of the race and I hope they don't.

Would like a list of the search engines they currently serve results to.

Marcia




msg:24817
 9:40 am on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

The latest of the majors for the US market is HotBot and MSN, plus supplemental for Overture and LookSmart, so they're at the ISPs and wherever else LS is.

Here's the list at their site:

[inktomi.com...]

Inktomi




msg:24818
 1:56 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi all,

I'm working on answers to your questions. I may not be able to reply immediately in all cases (especially late at night on a Sunday ;))

Marcia has posted the list of our major partners. Thanks! As for additional partners, I mentioned in a previous post that we're aggressively working to increase distribution and renew current contracts. It's a top priority for us. Marcia, thanks also for that VeriSign link - we'll get in contact with them to make sure it's updated.

You guys have also suggested a ton of product features, so thanks! We do have a major release in the pipeline right now which we'll be able to tell you about shortly. I can't yet comment on that, but you'll get to hear about it soon.

Also, a few of you mentioned very specific complaints/issues you've had with our PFI program. If you could provide additional details (perhaps via Sticky Mail) I'd be happy to look into it for you.

Thanks,
Inktomi.

nell




msg:24819
 5:09 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

>caught everyone out

So, people got caught out. Everyone gets caught out at some time or another. It happens all the time all over. I get caught for bank robbery and I can expect to do 20 years. However, if I get caught for speeding I expect to be fined and not have my car taken away.

To ban sites because they violated some Inktomi law is fine but for a limited period of time, not for good. Repeat offenders should get banned for longer periods of time. Habitual offenders should get banned for good. Make the punishment fit the violation.

Make the penalties clear to people and obviate misunderstandings and consequential bad feelings.

GoInkGo




msg:24820
 5:21 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Make the penalties clear to people

Do you think that other search engines are clear about their penalties ?

BTW, Welcome to the board Inktomi... great to see you here ;)

jeremy goodrich




msg:24821
 6:06 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

I think it would be great if Ink would continue this great step towards actually communicating with their target market for their products and services

and actually admit that

1) they messed up - big time - with that database issue (others mentioned it too)

2) INk realizes along with dwindling market share and share price that they can't afford to ignore the webmaster / SEO community

3) they need to be honest - they don't provide documentation, but we all know, how their paid model really works for the marketer

After that, we can start to see where we have intersecting needs: Ink provides search products, SEO's who market stuff for $$$ money would like to buy them, if the price is right and the ROI is there.

Given that historically, the communication has not been there, and INK has treated SEO's and webmasters with worse than disrespect, but outright antagonism I for one don't have a lot of faith that this dialogue can bring any fruit for either side of the table.

How about you post again, publically, addressing these core issues? ;)

Once that happens, maybe I'll post something all warm and fuzzy too.

EliteWeb




msg:24822
 6:19 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Welcome to WebmasterWorld :) I'm sure you've lurked around here for some time and now yer out (: I have a suggestion im sure everyone here would love.

Del Taco's (www.deltaco.com) have what they call Taco Tuesday where their tacos are 3/99cents

McDonalds has Hamburger/Cheeseburger Sunday where they are 29/39 cents each.

Inktomis need a Submission Saturday where people can get into their program for a lower price, allowing the webmasters/seo's to take a step into the pay inclusion community of things, bring some new people into the Inktomi world.

I have many clients who are hard to convince because they're cheap to do Pay inclusions allowing a cheap rate brings new people in, and they would feel less burned if it didnt work out for them, and if it did they would realize its a valuable resource...

Yay for Submit Saturdays!

mahlon




msg:24823
 7:30 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Wheew, whats this?

Top Visitors

Visitor Hits % of Total Hits Visitor Sessions
1 w3cache.waw.cdp.pl 17 0.11% 10
2 j3117.inktomisearch.com 9 0.05% 7
3 j3119.inktomisearch.com 6 0.03% 6
4 j3169.inktomisearch.com 5 0.03% 5
5 j3188.inktomisearch.com 5 0.03% 5
6 j3183.inktomisearch.com 5 0.03% 5
7 j3112.inktomisearch.com 6 0.03% 4
8 j3136.inktomisearch.com 4 0.02% 4
9 j3155.inktomisearch.com 4 0.02% 4
10 j3199.inktomisearch.com 4 0.02% 4
11 j3143.inktomisearch.com 5 0.03% 4
12 j3109.inktomisearch.com 4 0.02% 4
13 j3100.inktomisearch.com 5 0.03% 4
14 j3182.inktomisearch.com 4 0.02% 4
15 j3154.inktomisearch.com 6 0.03% 3
16 j3159.inktomisearch.com 3 0.01% 3
17 j3115.inktomisearch.com 4 0.02% 3
18 j3141.inktomisearch.com 5 0.03% 3
19 j3128.inktomisearch.com 4 0.02% 3
20 j3139.inktomisearch.com 3 0.01% 3
Subtotal for Visitors Above 108 0.71% 88

:)

Lingerboy




msg:24824
 7:30 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Inktomi,

I'm surprised you guys have not gone to a bidded, pay-for-position/pay-per-click (PFP/PPC) model yet. With the Looksmart system widely disliked by most SEOs, seems like there is an opportunity here. If you guys offered a no-minimum bid, pay-for-position/pay-per-click (PFP/PPC) alternative, I bet everyone would jump ship with Looksmart, leaving Ink with meaningful MSN marketshare. Overture does not reach MSN for low traffic terms, so the door is wide open.

How about it?

Dpeper




msg:24825
 7:36 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

mmm... tacos...

Well any ways I think its great to see some one from ink on here.

Marcia




msg:24826
 7:40 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

I'd hate to see too much of a change or pricing increase. I don't do real *big* sites and probably never will. I stay with low to medium, and a lot of the people are Mom 'n Pop types with merchandise that's consumer oriented, but comparatively low ticket. Often the budget just isn't there for PPC, which can really add up, and there's enough of that around, anyway.

If the competitive level is right and there isn't much LS at MSN, what Inktomi has now is a very affordable option and a good opportunity to get a fast start for the small business - less than a week and they're seeing something tangible.

There's just not that much left any more for the small business person, so it's nice that there are still a couple of options left so they don't all get crowded out.

Inktomi




msg:24827
 8:46 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi all,

We're hoping that taking this step and becoming active in these forums demonstrates that we recognize how important this community is. I agree that we have not been so good at this in the past, but we want to get better at it. We're hoping that by beginning the dialogue we can be more responsive in the future.

I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. EliteWeb, I like the idea of Submission Saturdays. Perhaps we can give away cheeseburgers as well? ;) We actually do have a free trial for our Index Connect program (>1,000 URLs), but perhaps we should consider a promotion for Search Submit (<1,000 URLs).

Thanks,
Inktomi.

makemetop




msg:24828
 8:58 pm on Aug 5, 2002 (gmt 0)

>INK has treated SEO's and webmasters with worse than disrespect..

Not this webmaster/SEO! I've been banned by INK and penalized (in the past) - but the rules were clear. Fixed the faults and my (new) pages were ranking within days. Unlike other SEs I know ;)

Although this is not directly attributable to INK, the feedback and communication I have had with PT has been second to none. It has saved (and made) me money, time and energy. For that I (and my customers) will always be grateful.

This 95 message thread spans 4 pages: < < 95 ( 1 [2] 3 4 > >
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