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Any "ex pat" Scots here ?
Or anyone with at least one Scottish parent..
Leosghost




msg:4512655
 3:01 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

Who, after all, is Scottish? Those born in Scotland? People with Scottish ancestry?

There are five million people in Scotland. Those of voting age can have their say in the independence referendum. The 800,000 Scots in the rest of the UK cannot vote in it. But what is the essence of being Scottish?


[bbc.co.uk...]

 

brotherhood of LAN




msg:4512657
 3:16 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

I fall into this category but my ineligibility is not surprising, it's a Scottish nationalist party calling a referendum of independence and logistically it makes sense to only allow people who are already on the electoral roll. It also makes sense for them to exclude those living in the UK outside Scotland are they're much more likely to be happy with the status-quo.

The SNP also granted the vote to 16-17 year olds who are far more likely to be pro-nationalist.

btw:

This is NOT a forum for religious, political, or nationalistic discussion

Leosghost




msg:4512659
 3:30 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

My question was more in relation to what is "the essence of being Scottish"..rather than who should be "eligible"..

In the past in foo we have had threads of the "where are you from " type..

Lot of members here were not originally "from" the countries in which they now reside..

I'm from Ireland ( grew up mainly there and the UK, and a few other countries ) ..live in France..French wife..adult son born here ..I feel equally Irish and French..

It is webmasterworld written up top.. :)

[edited by: Leosghost at 3:37 pm (utc) on Oct 26, 2012]

phranque




msg:4512660
 3:33 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

"the essence of being Scottish"

according to my experience, drinking is somewhere near the beginning of that description.

Leosghost




msg:4512661
 3:41 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

according to my experience, drinking is somewhere near the beginning of that description.

Applies equally well to my original home country and my adopted one :))

I think ( BDW will be able to confirm ? ) that "the temperance movement" began in Scotland ?

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:4512662
 3:48 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

according to my experience, drinking is somewhere near the beginning of that description.

That is one of the unfortunate cliches with which we have been branded. the other is that Scots are mean. This came from the music hall days with Sir Harry Lauder being notoriously mean. Somehow it was concluded from this that all Scots were mean. My own experience is that Scots are very generous people. the English are much tighter than we are. ;)

The worrying thing is that like the Loch Ness monster, some people believe these things to be true.

(Added: I thought the temperance movement came from the USA?)

[edited by: BeeDeeDubbleU at 3:50 pm (utc) on Oct 26, 2012]

brotherhood of LAN




msg:4512663
 3:49 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

Ah I see, some love for the Scots.

TBH, I'd divide the place into 3 or 4 distinct areas that have their own distinct accents/culture/history, but one unifying thing is our directness. Subtle undertones, hidden messages or not saying what you really want to say are most unwelcome!

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:4512668
 3:52 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

It also makes sense for them to exclude those living in the UK outside Scotland are they're much more likely to be happy with the status-quo.
I had considered that too and I agree. Scots who have settled in other parts of the UK, particularly England are unlikely to want to rock the boat.
Leosghost




msg:4512669
 3:59 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

(Added: I thought the temperance movement came from the USA?)

I was told that by someone English when I lived in the UK, I don't remember them saying it in a disparaging way ( as in a sort of "they drink, so it began there" ) more as something that they considered was a "fact"..so I never doubted them ..
( something else for me to "look up" and see where it really originated, which part of the USA, and why, if it was the USA.. in the wee small hours of the night )..

When I lived in the UK I used to travel regularly to the North of Scotland..( RAF bases there ) loved the journey and the people..used to bring back loads of haggis ( which I don't eat ) for expat friends ...

phranque




msg:4512674
 4:09 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

in my case it has absolutely nothing to do with cliches and everything to do with my experience among those who self-identify as "scottish", with a high correlation.

londrum




msg:4512689
 4:50 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

The SNP also granted the vote to 16-17 year olds who are far more likely to be pro-nationalist.

apparently this isn't true. there was something in the paper a while back that said it would swing the vote 0.2% the other way. that's why Cameron didn't mind agreeing to it.

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:4512692
 5:00 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

in my case it has absolutely nothing to do with cliches and everything to do with my experience among those who self-identify as "scottish",
People who "self identify" as Scots and real Scots are not the same thing. ;)
brotherhood of LAN




msg:4512700
 5:02 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

>there was something in the paper a while back that said it would swing the vote 0.2% the other way. that's why Cameron didn't mind agreeing to it.

That's surprising. Salmond must think different as he's the one pulling the strings.

TBH a masterstroke would be allowing the rest of the UK to vote on it, as I'm thinking that'd get him what he's after...

londrum




msg:4512718
 5:38 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

he'd get my vote, yeah. and i've never even been to scotland. i look at it like this: its like keeping your wife locked up under the stairs. if she wants to get out, then let her go. you'll save yourself a lot of earache and you won't have to give her housekeeping money every month as well. it's a win-win

brotherhood of LAN




msg:4512730
 5:49 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

haha

I think the economics are OK (Scotland's GDP is somewhere in between North and South England)... but I just don't see any clear advantages in doing so. Same with any UK state going it alone. The rewriting of the laws & treaties would be a nightmare. I don't mind identifying myself as Britsh or Scottish.

Anyways, we're all British. Remember... Andy Murray won this year!

londrum




msg:4512771
 7:03 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

okay, but that only lasts for 12 months. he has to reapply to be British again next Wimbledon

Leosghost




msg:4512778
 7:22 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

If they think he'll win again..the daily mail will arrange with the Westminster government for him to be British..like they did with Zola Budd..

g1smd




msg:4512779
 7:22 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

All Scottish cuisine is based on a dare.
-- Frankie Boyle
BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:4512793
 7:52 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

If they think he'll win again..the daily mail will arrange with the Westminster government for him to be British..like they did with Zola Budd..
And John Barnes, that Jamaican born and bred English soccer internationalist.
lucy24




msg:4512835
 9:50 pm on Oct 26, 2012 (gmt 0)

Anyways, we're all British.

This is a common pattern between groups of people in many different situations. Mountain people and lowlanders, urban people and farmers, you name it. Group A sees a strong distinction between Us and Them, while Group B sees "We have our differences, but we're all one big happy family at heart".

In the US, the temperance movement was a response to the symptoms of heavy drinking-- lost work time, injuries, domestic violence and so on. Treating some of those symptoms as problems in their own right was unthinkable, so it became Demon Rum instead.

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:4512910
 8:00 am on Oct 27, 2012 (gmt 0)

The independence movement is a response to Scotland being treated as an irrelevance by many UK governments in the past (and still on occasion).

Shaddows




msg:4513366
 11:58 am on Oct 29, 2012 (gmt 0)

The SNP also granted the vote to 16-17 year olds who are far more likely to be pro-nationalist.


It's a long held belief that 16-17 year olds are pro-nationalist.

The thing is, those for whom the belief was formed are now in their late 20s/early 30s.

The current 16-17 year olds can't remember Major, let alone Thatcher. The Poll Tax, Mine closures and general anti-English sentiment of the 80's and early 90's simply didn't rub off on those who weren't born then.

On the residence Vs "nationality" debate: you can't reasonably define eligibility in any other way than residency. Without resorting to Birth Certificates (potentially of Grandparents), there is no objective criteria. Self-identification is useless as it opens the door for much hijacking.

Thought (without any basis) that Temperance was from Scottish presbyterianism?

Marketing Guy




msg:4513411
 3:44 pm on Oct 29, 2012 (gmt 0)

On the residence Vs "nationality" debate: you can't reasonably define eligibility in any other way than residency.


Agreed. Otherwise it would be an easy argument that the rest of the UK gets to vote as well, and that leads to an odd situation. There have been some calls to make the vote UK wide, but realistically that's like telling the UK they can't leave the EU unless every other EU country votes and lets them.

Being Scottish and living in the capital, I've been keeping a keen eye on developments. It's interesting, and I do understand some of the concerns south of the border from Uniionists who feel they're not getting a saying in what happens to their country.

It's a tough situation and no one really knows how it will work out. Take the north of England for example - it could go from being in the middle of a country to being on the outskirts overnight. None of us can predict what impact that'd have on local economies over time.

Personally, I'm easy either way, but it would be nice not to be one of the few countries in the world not to have its own TLD.... :)

londrum




msg:4513414
 4:01 pm on Oct 29, 2012 (gmt 0)

it sometimes seems like alex salmond is trying hard to reduce the impact as much as possible, almost to zero. he's keeping the same money, the same head of state, still wants to be in the EU, still wants to be in NATO, wants to keep the border open... he's already got control over most of his stuff in the edinburgh parliament. he wont have total control over the money if he keeps the pound. so what exactly is the point. it seems more like a pride thing.
not that there's anything wrong with that.
they'll still be voting for the same parties and have the same politicians in charge too. so not even that will change.

Shaddows




msg:4513417
 4:16 pm on Oct 29, 2012 (gmt 0)

If the Euro was not in so many difficulties, he would have used that. Indeed, it's not legally obvious that you can secede from the UK, but join the EU without accepting the Euro as mandated for new members.

He's a republican (small R in these electoral times), but once he establishes the right to decide the Head of State (and Queen Elizabeth dies, leaving the much less popular Charles to take the, uh, reigns) he can fight that battle in the future. No point making it part of this particular war.

First establish the principle, then push for its conclusions. No one ever thought Salmond was anything other than a shrewd operator.

Shaddows




msg:4513421
 4:27 pm on Oct 29, 2012 (gmt 0)

they'll still be voting for the same parties


Possibly not. The Tories will probably disappear. There may be a rise of "proper" Nationalistic parties. The Rump of the UK may find it's political parties changing too.

Even before the proposed boundary changes, the Tories are a huge majority without Scottish seats filling up the Labour benches. Once that is the case, the Tories can get on with their Civil War without fear of losing all hopes of power as would currently happen if the party split.

On one hand, you have the vehemently Anti-EU MPs and on the other, the merely Eurosceptic ones. And the One Nation strand versus the "Know Your Place" variety. In any case, with a natural majority it's my guess they will fall apart.

g1smd




msg:4513422
 4:32 pm on Oct 29, 2012 (gmt 0)

Will people who don't have a Scottish passport be allowed to stand for office in Scotland?

Will people who currently represent English or Welsh constituencies, have to stop doing so when they change their passport from UK to Scottish?

topr8




msg:4513466
 6:12 pm on Oct 29, 2012 (gmt 0)

>>the other is that Scots are mean. This came from the music hall days with Sir Harry Lauder being notoriously mean. Somehow it was concluded from this that all Scots were mean.

not sure about that, i have a large collection of old Punch magazines and in a lot of the victorian and early 20th century issues there are jokes about 'careful' scotsmen - but they are nearly always aberdonians, so i don't think it was universally attributed to scotsmen in general.

topr8




msg:4513467
 6:13 pm on Oct 29, 2012 (gmt 0)

I think the definition of a scotsman should include a love of small wiry terriers!

all the best come from there: scottie dog, westie, skye terrier, cairn terrier etc.

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