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Ecommerce Forum

This 31 message thread spans 2 pages: 31 ( [1] 2 > >     
Credit card fraud
Fraudlent customer, fraud orders
rcflight




msg:4019174
 6:49 pm on Nov 4, 2009 (gmt 0)

I just hit with a $192 chargeback from a customer even thought I emailed him, called him and even have a delivery confirmation signature. Even AVS and CVV number are a match. I am at loss how to prevent this. I called him this morning and he said it was a wrong number and hung up on me. I am not sure what to do.

 

StoutFiles




msg:4019175
 6:51 pm on Nov 4, 2009 (gmt 0)

Are you getting your merchandise mailed back to you?

rcflight




msg:4019181
 6:57 pm on Nov 4, 2009 (gmt 0)

Nope I just sent an email to him he hasn't replied yet.

bwnbwn




msg:4019189
 7:08 pm on Nov 4, 2009 (gmt 0)

Fight it send in all the information you have the signature to the correct address is usually enough to get it reversed in your favor.

Be sure and put the AVS checked the CVV checked the Phone # Checked and have proof of delivery. Make a copy of the signed delivery and Fax to merchant services.

I myself feel you will get it reversed in your favor. be sure an let us know.

rcflight




msg:4019196
 7:16 pm on Nov 4, 2009 (gmt 0)

I just faxed everything and I also found an email that he sent me asking when the order was going to be shipped from the email address he provided. I faxed all that to the merchant services.Now I just wait.I will post the outcome.

LifeinAsia




msg:4019204
 7:31 pm on Nov 4, 2009 (gmt 0)

Additionally, send a certified letter to the same address you shipped to stating that if the issue is not resolved, you will be required to file a police report. You don't need to make it sound like a threat- just say that it's standard corporate policy any time there is a dispute like this.

This person is directly committing the fraud or is an accessory. Either way, possession of stolen goods is a criminal offense.

rcflight




msg:4019207
 7:41 pm on Nov 4, 2009 (gmt 0)

Thank you that's a good idea.

ssgumby




msg:4019219
 8:09 pm on Nov 4, 2009 (gmt 0)

Let us know the outcome, ill be curious how this turns out.

bwnbwn




msg:4019233
 8:21 pm on Nov 4, 2009 (gmt 0)

Me 2

I just had one I know I can't win. Here is their MO.

Get an order everthing checks out, to a different address so we check the phone number to match the card. Call the number of registered cc and ask did they place the order. They say yes and why it is being shipped to a different address.
Month later get a chargeback. They are saying they didn't place the order.

I am hung so what to do to protect myself.

I guess we are going to start recording the ones we have to call going to a different address and get them to state x name at x address did place the order for x using x card number to x address for x reason from x website on x day for x amount.

Even with this I am not sure I would win.

MrHard




msg:4019359
 12:28 am on Nov 5, 2009 (gmt 0)

It's an easy win. Please respond to the chargeback following the instructions.

Then report back here that you got your money back so people stop complaining about how chargebacks can never be won, were at their mercy, etc.

StoutFiles




msg:4019365
 12:59 am on Nov 5, 2009 (gmt 0)

guess we are going to start recording the ones we have to call going to a different address

This has been discussed to death. If you send to a different address then the shipping info, you have little to no chance of winning on chargebacks and will become a target for ccard scammers.

ssgumby




msg:4019378
 1:28 am on Nov 5, 2009 (gmt 0)

Nothing is an easy win. We had a chargeback, we had proof of delivery. They claimed it wasnt their signature. We had a match of a signature from the local county office on the deed of the house, matched the sig perfectly. We had proof this same person (via IP) attempted to shop our site again several times (we blocked each attempt). We still lost the chargeback. The only ones we have won, and we only have maybe 1 or 2 a year, but the only ones we won is ones we disputed and the card holder never replied back.

rocknbil




msg:4019415
 3:31 am on Nov 5, 2009 (gmt 0)

Welcome aboard rcflight - judging by your nickname, as an RC fanatic myself, I can say the hobby is glutted with lots of kids or adults who behave like kids . . . follow the advice of the members here, with a signature confirmation you stand a pretty good chance of recovery on this one.

LifeinAsia




msg:4019769
 4:59 pm on Nov 5, 2009 (gmt 0)

If you lose the chargeback, you can always take the person to court. Credit card companies tend to look at the bottom line and favor their card holders. But in court, you just need to convince an impartial judge with the evidence.

Also, lying to credit card companies (by saying it's not your signature) pretty much has no penalty. Lying in court has some serious penalties, so the perp may be less likely to try to lie.

rcflight




msg:4019778
 5:20 pm on Nov 5, 2009 (gmt 0)

Yep, I am not going to leave it alone, I know the package went to a commercial location the same guy signed it. I have UPS signature delivery receipt signed by him. I am going to shift it to collections agencies if I loose. Even if I don't get the money.

rcflight




msg:4019926
 8:46 pm on Nov 5, 2009 (gmt 0)

I just found this site and hope it will help other business owners.
The company is called chargebackfile I am not sure if I am allowed to give the URL but if you Google the name you'll find it. They have a whole database of fraud I.P addresses, phone no , email.You can sign up for a free account. I checked mine fraudsters (I.P) address and guess what, they have done it before.Their I.P address is in their database. I hope it helps so we don't loose money when the sales are waay down this holiday season

bwnbwn




msg:4020681
 9:07 pm on Nov 6, 2009 (gmt 0)

MrHard it isn't an easy win I already know been there done that. I have yet to win a chargeback and have tried and tried and tried.

Chalk it up lesson learned and new procudures are being put into place to better protect against this type of activity.

Been doing this for 9 years now and have learned the hard way.

2 chargebacks this year is a good track record out of 1000's of orders sent I feel. I just hate them to no end and want to get to 0 next year. I would suspect we have had 300-500 maybe more fraud orders this year that have been caught and not processed.

MrHard




msg:4028506
 2:53 am on Nov 20, 2009 (gmt 0)

Bwnbwn, same processor the whole time? Curious to know who. A real bank merchant account, or are we talking authorize.net or some other online aggregator?

bwnbwn




msg:4028825
 3:54 pm on Nov 20, 2009 (gmt 0)

MeHard yes a real merchant account I have been with Fast Data now 10 years.
If the order had gone to the real address I could win (most of the time) but since it was sent to another address he just said he didn't order the product and the card info was stolen. He denied he spoke to us and without it being recorded I can't prove anything. Chalk this up to another learning curve.

LifeinAsia




msg:4028861
 4:34 pm on Nov 20, 2009 (gmt 0)

He denied he spoke to us

May be clutching at straws at this point, but was it a long-distance call that you made to the customer? Was the call recorded on your phone bill?

rcflight




msg:4028914
 6:08 pm on Nov 20, 2009 (gmt 0)

Had another one few days ago this was for $400. Like before everything checks out and I shipped the product I even called the number and left a message to verify the order. No calls for 2 days I ship the order and I get a call saying that card was stolen, lucky me I ship with UPS, immediately did an package intercept,only loss was $46 for the shipping.It is just getting harder to catch these fraudsters now days. From now on I only ship to same billing and shipping address and only to verified and listed addresses. I can't take no more chances, I can't afford to take more hits. Any suggestion on
extra verification steps apart from CVV, AVS and emailing and calling them.

bwnbwn




msg:4029042
 10:03 pm on Nov 20, 2009 (gmt 0)

LifeinAsia that won't be accepted as proof to merchant services. I am not really sure recording the call will be accepted, but telling the customer he is being recorded might make a difference and they will back out of doing a chargeback.

LifeinAsia




msg:4029066
 10:54 pm on Nov 20, 2009 (gmt 0)

No, but it could be sufficient proof for the police.

MrHard




msg:4030634
 5:01 am on Nov 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

Yes a real merchant account I have been with Fast Data now 10 years

That's what I expected. Your merchant provider is the problem, not the bank. They are not sending through your paperwork to the issuing bank to defend against these chargebacks for some reason.

rcflight




msg:4039668
 9:01 pm on Dec 8, 2009 (gmt 0)

New update on the chargeback. Here it what paypal has to say
Status: Case Closed
Status Details: Using the information you provided, we are in the process of disputing this chargeback with the buyer's credit card company. Please note that this dispute process can take 75 days or more and that there is no guarantee that we will be successful in our attempt to recover your funds. If we are successful, we will promptly return to your account any recovered funds that we previously debited for this chargeback. We will notify you of any updates about this case by email and in the Resolution Center.

This matter has been resolved and no funds were debited from your account for this chargeback. We were charged a fee for processing this chargeback and have debited your account a Chargeback Settlement Fee.

docs I have provided to paypal -
UPS delivery signature
all emails by the buyer
Order reciepts with 7 days refund policy clearly listed.
Proof of shipment from UPS with tracking number.

LifeinAsia




msg:4039697
 10:09 pm on Dec 8, 2009 (gmt 0)

Oh this was PayPal?! Oh, forget about it then- it's a lost cause and you'll most likely lose the money. What loophole did they use to tell you you're not covered by their Seller Protection Plan?

rcflight




msg:4039738
 11:04 pm on Dec 8, 2009 (gmt 0)

Hi LifeinAsia,
Did you see the second paragraph the chargeback case has been closed and they did not debit any money from my account, just the chargeback settlement fees.

LifeinAsia




msg:4039743
 11:19 pm on Dec 8, 2009 (gmt 0)

Re-read the first paragraph where they said they are in the process of disputing the charge. Especially see
Please note that this dispute process can take 75 days or more and that there is no guarantee that we will be successful in our attempt to recover your funds.

In other words, if the customer's credit card company finds in the customer's favor, then they will again take the money from PayPal, who will take the money back from you.

smartwork




msg:4039760
 12:07 am on Dec 9, 2009 (gmt 0)

I would agree that winning charge-backs is not always easy. I do have two suggestions for anyone who's interested though:

1. Have a high-quality card-processor. We used a processor for years and lost every charge-back dispute that we submitted even though we had every imagineable piece of proof available. Out of ignorance at the time, we thought all charge-backs were processed by an entity outside the processor (like big Visa or something). Well... we finally saw the light and discovered a high-quality processor who smashed our previous rates and service we had been receiving. Well... we've not lost a charge-back since we've switched. Your processor DOES make a difference in your success. In hind-sight, we somewhat doubt our submissions to the first processor were even being read before conclusions were made.

2. Submit all your data in an easy-to-read format. If you have email exchanges, don't just send/fax them all in a hodge-podge group. Copy them (including header info to,from,date) into a document and put the messages and replies into a chronological order so the reviewer can read through them like they would a conversation. Don't make them jump around trying to determine the order of events. We believe this has also made a huge impact in our successes. Don't make them work to help you. Make it easy.

Just a couple things that have improved our results.

Wlauzon




msg:4039888
 5:39 am on Dec 9, 2009 (gmt 0)

Oh this was PayPal?! Oh, forget about it then- it's a lost cause and you'll most likely lose the money. What loophole did they use to tell you you're not covered by their Seller Protection Plan?

Baloney.

Over the past 5 years or so we have had maybe 30 disputed orders. Of them, we won about 1 in 5 of those charged to a credit card, and all but ONE charged to PayPal.

This 31 message thread spans 2 pages: 31 ( [1] 2 > >
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