homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.226.43.155
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Pubcon Platinum Sponsor 2014
Visit PubCon.com
Home / Forums Index / WebmasterWorld / Ecommerce
Forum Library, Charter, Moderators: buckworks

Ecommerce Forum

This 46 message thread spans 2 pages: 46 ( [1] 2 > >     
Bank to Bank Wire Transfer, How Safe?
incomming wire transfer reverse funds fraud scam
Starlight




msg:3833784
 3:10 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

I have read the two threads from 2005 and 2007 about international wire transfers being able to be reversed. My logical brain is getting in the way of all the passion expressed in those threads. IF transferred money CAN be taken back by the issuing bank, how can any of the greedy westerners that have transferred money to scammers be out a single nickle? If it is possible to reverse the transferred funds, every single person in the USA that transferred their money to a Nigerian Bank would simple allege fraud and get it back.

I ship internationally and have never been scammed although many have tried. Actually I tricked two scammers into wiring me money to complete the transaction. (it was hilarious fun!) Right now I have person that wants me to ship to Nigeria. Obviously all my guard is up. However, the flavor of communication is completely different from the hundreds of scam letters I have collected. I would appreciate any updated information about incoming wire transfer experiences.

My kindest regards,
Larry

 

jsinger




msg:3833811
 3:48 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

If it is possible to reverse the transferred funds, every single person in the USA that transferred their money to a Nigerian Bank would simple allege fraud and get it back.

For one thing, the scammer withdraws the transferred funds the instant they reach his bank. You can't reverse from a closed or empty bank account.

Starlight




msg:3833822
 4:11 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

jsinger, I have read this in the other threads. If the money goes to my "wire-transfer-bank-account" that I empty every day, is there a problem? And why would a Nigerian or any bank keep loosing their money to local scammers if my bank can force reverse transfers? It MUST work both ways.

Does anyone have personal, real experience where money was received by wire transfer and then reversed without your consent? Or is all the forum talk just fear of the unknown?

Respectfully yours,
Larry

Green_Grass




msg:3833831
 4:27 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

Have done biz. worth millions of USD over 10 years on Bank Transfers from Algeria/ Tunisia/Morocco/Chile/ Brazil/Mauritius for Textile yarns from India with customers who didn't have a great reputation and never faced a problem. Even one scam would have got me thrown out of the Textile companies, I worked for.

The only customer who tried to scam us was from Florida/ US who didn't succeed because we didn't believe their WORD and waited for the actual funds to be received, before shipping which never arrived.

My experience. The last job I held was as a Dy. General Manager ( Exports) for a huge Textile firm, so maybe I know a little abt. intl. bank transactions. or maybe not...

Starlight




msg:3833834
 4:48 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

Green Grass, I must say your response is very encouraging. Your real-world experience sounds credible. It may be that the products you are dealing with are not as subject to scammers attempts. I will put that in my scale of decisions. Thank you.

I love/hate forums because it is sometimes difficult to sift through the many opinions and passionate rhetoric from folks with no real experience. So, dito my question, has anyone had funds taken?

Larry

jecasc




msg:3833952
 9:13 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

Once the amount has been transfered to the account of the recipient the money can not be simply returned. I have received thousand of payments by bank-transfer in the last years and made probably thousands of payments and it simply has not happened.

Even if the money is credited to a wrong bank-account - for example because you put in a wrong account number, or if someone forges a signature or succeeds with phishing a bank account - the transfer can not be simply reversed, once the money has been credited to the account of the recipient. But this is an important detail: only when it has been credited on the account of the recipient - which can take one or two days. So a proof that the transfer has been made is not enough. You have to wait until the money is on your account.

However this does not rule out any legal measures to get the money back in other ways if fraud is involved or a mistake has been made.

Once I made a mistake and transfered money to the wrong account number. I called the bank a few days later - they would not even tell me the name of the account holder where the money really went. But they called the recipient and he returned the money. If he had not returned it I would have had to take it to court to get my money back.

Only a few month ago, someone forged my signature and sent a fax to my bank - instructing the bank to send money from my account to a bank account in Sarajevo. The bank transfered the money. I noticed the next day and they were able to get the money back - but only because the transfer had not been completed yet. They told me that if the transfer had been completed there would have been no way to reverse the transfer and since they were liable my bank would have had to replace the money from their own funds. Of course they could have tried to get the money back from the recipient by reporting the case to the police in Sarajevo.

So receiving money by bank-transfer in my experience is one of the safest methods of receiving money, in any case much safer than credit card payment or Paypal or a cheque - but if in doubt ask your bank.

Starlight




msg:3833963
 9:41 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

Thanks jecasc, I believe what you and green grass have said. I also doubt that anyone is going to reply with true story of loss. On Monday I will review my banks policy before I proceed to receive the funds. In the mean time, I have requested information from the buyer such as
Full name:
age:
residential address:
ship to address:
bank name:
bank account number:
bank routing number:
bank phone number:
bank account representative:

If it's a scam I doubt they will reply with such information.

Lexur




msg:3833968
 9:47 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

the transfer can not be simply reversed, once the money has been credited to the account of the recipient. But this is an important detail: only when it has been credited on the account of the recipient - which can take one or two days

You hit the nail on the head with this explanation. These two/three days delay is the source of many horror stories.

I once knew a guy who spent two thousand euros received in a wrong transfer saying nobody can remove money from his account. The bank took him to court to get back the money (unfortunately for the bank he was in bankruptcy).

jecasc




msg:3833986
 10:43 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

I once knew a guy who spent two thousand euros received in a wrong transfer saying nobody can remove money from his account. The bank took him to court to get back the money (unfortunately for the bank he was in bankruptcy).

That's of course the catch: Not being able to reverse a money transfer does not mean there are not other legal means to get the money back in case of an erroneous or fraudulent transfer. If the money is still there of course.

But at least its more difficult. Not like credit cards where card holders are sometimes able to get through with a chargeback because "they did not like the goods" - however did not bother to return them.

jsinger




msg:3834074
 2:42 am on Jan 25, 2009 (gmt 0)

Right now I have person that wants me to ship to Nigeria.

Its fortunate that all keyboards come with a button to deal with such problems in one keystroke.

Can someone point me to a Nigerian e-commerce website that caters to their local market of about 150 million people? Is there even ONE?

thorsten iceland




msg:3834302
 7:11 pm on Jan 25, 2009 (gmt 0)

Starlight wrote:
Right now I have person that wants me to ship to Nigeria. Obviously all my guard is up. However, the flavor of communication is completely different from the hundreds of scam letters I have collected. I would appreciate any updated information about incoming wire transfer experiences.

Nigeria (and nearby Ghana) remain the two countries that our merchants block entirely. They simply will not even accept an order attempt from those countries. In general commerce it seems Nigeria only has this reputation, but sadly Ghana is quickly catching up.

Sadly for those legitimate people in Nigeria (and of course there are many) the country is already effectively cut-off like an Island from most non-face to face commerce, not just ecommerce.

That is because for the time being the Nigerian scammer stereotype exists for a reason unfortunately.

(The other countries so profiled where for the last years the majority of ecommerce purchase attempts with credit cards are found to be fraudulent are detailed in this thread [webmasterworld.com].)

Green_Grass wrote:
My experience. The last job I held was as a Dy. General Manager ( Exports) for a huge Textile firm, so maybe I know a little abt. intl. bank transactions. or maybe not...

Hearing about your experience is valuable no doubt, but it does sound as though your experiences were with larger enterprises where you were doing larger business to business transactions.

As to your previous 'calling out [webmasterworld.com]' of posters who's experiences differ from yours in this area, perhaps you would be prepared to put up some kind of guarantee that if posters here would take your advice you would indemnify them up to a certain amount for accepting a bank wire if certain procedures and due diligence you might specify were followed?

gpilling




msg:3834378
 11:07 pm on Jan 25, 2009 (gmt 0)

only when it has been credited on the account of the recipient - which can take one or two days

You can make that "up to 2 weeks". I have a close friend who imports from Indonesia. He wire transfers money there often, but on his last order the bank in Indonesia lost the money for 2 weeks. The US bank sent it, but the Indo bank couldn't "find" it. Finally it was resolved, "found" and his order went through. Caused him a few sleepless nights.

MrHard




msg:3834387
 11:35 pm on Jan 25, 2009 (gmt 0)

I would deem the funds transferred to your account as safe and forget about it. Never had any problems with it.

The only issue is giving out your account, routing, bank address info. etc. for the transfer. This info. can be used to make counterfeit checks which can be drawn on your account. They cant use it to wire funds out of your account without your permission. So you should know who it is asking for your info. and determine if they are capable of such a thing.

I usually do this by waiting to see if they suggest a wire transfer for payment. If they do I am very suspicious and would probably not proceed unless I knew who they were.

Starlight




msg:3834440
 1:49 am on Jan 26, 2009 (gmt 0)

OK, thanks to all for the comments but my question still stands: Has anyone ever received a wire transfer and had it reversed without consent?

This is what I meant about my love/hate of forums. All the chatter is of some future value as was the previous threads on this subject of several years ago. However, it does not address reality but rather becomes a form of yammer. No offense intended.

MrHard, I can use a savings account in an unrelated (to my business) bank to receive the funds.

Since the alleged buyer has not returned my request for personal details or contacted me, the point may be moot.

Quadrille




msg:3834486
 4:10 am on Jan 26, 2009 (gmt 0)

Most of the wire transfer scams do not involve the money, but the promise of money. they are about fake emails saying there's money, so you dispatch the goods without payment.

As someone recounted above, provided you do not act until the cash is verified as received, there's no problem.

In most of (mainland) Europe, the whole system runs on wire transfer, and there's no such thing as a charge back, in the way there is on certain other systems.

Green_Grass




msg:3834530
 6:30 am on Jan 26, 2009 (gmt 0)

"As to your previous 'calling out' of posters who's experiences differ from yours in this area, perhaps you would be prepared to put up some kind of guarantee that if posters here would take your advice you would indemnify them up to a certain amount for accepting a bank wire if certain procedures and due diligence you might specify were followed"

Are we talking commercials here? Your comment is an effective discussion stopper not only in this forum but while discussing effectively anything. Should I now be required to give a Bank Guarantee ? before posting. Your naivette makes me laugh!

As the OP says ..Have you ever had a TT reversed? Do you have THAT experience? That is what the OP wants to know. He does NOT want to hear about your ASSUMPTIONS. Come on say It .. You received a bank transfer, got the money into your account and then it was taken back after you shipped the order... I will then shut up..

I simply refuse to accept 'misinformation' bandied about as 'TRUTH'..

Lexur




msg:3834535
 6:49 am on Jan 26, 2009 (gmt 0)

OK, thanks to all for the comments but my question still stands

You can ask if anyone did see an ET entity or a green dog. We all will say "no" and let you know a few tales about. Unfortunately, your question always stands too.

MrHard




msg:3835337
 4:59 am on Jan 27, 2009 (gmt 0)

OK, thanks to all for the comments but my question still stands

Does hearing about it happen to someone else count? What about hearing it happen from someone else who has heard about it?

If not, then why would hearing about it here be more factual or truthful then what our story was. Either way you would still not have direct experience of it happening to you and would not know with absolute certainty that it was fact.

Quadrille




msg:3835470
 10:28 am on Jan 27, 2009 (gmt 0)

OK, thanks to all for the comments but my question still stands

No one can ever prove that something has never happened; but the you may draw comfort from a lack of any proof, any evidence or even any suggestions that something has happened. Or not. :)

Starlight




msg:3835781
 5:12 pm on Jan 27, 2009 (gmt 0)

The purpose of my asking and pressing the point is that there was so much talk in other threads and forums that I wanted to qualify what was real experience and what was chatter by pseudo-experts rambling on in the endless blogs. The earliest threads I read were form 5 years ago. Even then people without experience seemed to post whatever popped into their mind. I wish there was a system to qualify and rate the reliability of things posted to the WWW.

I will let this drop for now. My potential Nigerian customer has sent all the personal information I requested. I can now investigate to my satisfaction and decide about the relationship. If I proceed with receiving the wire transfer for the first order, I will certainly let you know if I am the first to have the funds reversed:)

Thank you to all for your comments.

Larry

jsinger




msg:3835832
 5:57 pm on Jan 27, 2009 (gmt 0)

pseudo-experts rambling on in the endless blogs.

You want the names of some top law firms specializing in banking law? $1,000 should get you a no-blather expert opinion.

People might put more effort in their answers if you had more than 6 posts and I presume have not offered any help to others here with questions of their own.

Have fun with your Nigerian customer; If he checks out, I'll guess you'll be getting a second, much larger order from him soon.

[/blather]

HRoth




msg:3836127
 12:27 am on Jan 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

I asked my bank's specialist in international money transfers whether, if someone wired me money fraudulently, say, using someone else's bank account info, and I took that money out of the account, and the sending bank realized that the money was sent fraudulently, what would happen? He said I WOULD OWE MY OWN BANK THE MONEY. Wouldn't matter if I closed the account or what. Here's why. The banks have to make good errors. My bank would have to return the money to the bank that sent it wrongly, because that is how they deal with each other. My bank would then turn around and ask me for the money back. If I had removed the money and closed the account, they would come after me legally, because I would owe them the money. And if they couldn't get it because I spent it and had no assets, they would get a judgment against me. In his words, "The bank will always be paid." This is an exact quote. Legally, you do not get to keep money that a bank has paid to you in error.

So your real problem is not the bank in Sarajevo or wherever. It's your bank right here.

As for proof, there is no proof. There is only anecdotal information here.

Don't ask the teller at your bank, or the head of your local branch. Call your bank's corporate headquarters and ask to speak to the person who deals with international wire transfers, and then ask them to send you a letter outlining exactly what the situation is. Otherwise, you are just going around with "sucker" stamped on your forehead.

Why, you ask, do not the suckers who got suckered by their own greed, I mean, the Nigerian scamsters, just reverse their wires? Because their wires were not fraudulently made, that's why. They are SOL because they paid for something that was not worth having. And more importantly, no bank is out the money. Banks are not charitable institutions that just eat their mistakes.

[edited by: HRoth at 12:30 am (utc) on Jan. 28, 2009]

MrHard




msg:3836143
 1:12 am on Jan 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

But the bank does not care why someone wires money, only that the account holder wired it in full knowledge and that it went where it was supposed to go.

Try convincing the head of your local branch about why you wired money mistakenly and show him your chain letter.

The only reason it would be reversed would be if the bank made some sort of error, like switched a number and it went into someone else's account. or as someone noted on another thread, if the police got involved, prosecuted the culprits and a court told the bank to reverse the wire.

jecasc




msg:3836284
 7:55 am on Jan 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

The only reason it would be reversed would be if the bank made some sort of error, like switched a number and it went into someone else's account.

Not even this is true. Even if the bank makes an error it can not reverse the transfer when the amount has already been credited to the account of the recipient. The bank is liable and has to give you the money - yes. And the bank can try to get the funds back from the account holder where the money went - if he has any money. But the bank can not "reverse" the money transfer. The reason is simple as pie:

Imagine the following situation: Bank A makes an errounous transfer to an account on Bank B. The account holder of bank B removes the money from the account. Now Bank A notices its mistake and says to Bank B: "Hey give us the money back, we made a little mistake. What? The account holder has already removed the 10 Million Dollars? Oh sorry about that, but thats your problem. Just give us our money back."

If money transfers were not final the international banking system simply would not work.

The way it usually works is this: Bank A has to give you your money back and then can try to get the 10 Millionen back from Account Holder of Bank B - not Bank B itself. If they succeed is not your problem.

At least thats how my bank operates and that was my personal experience when someone removed money from my bank account by forging my signature, and what my bank told me.

My bank would have to return the money to the bank that sent it wrongly, because that is how they deal with each other. My bank would then turn around and ask me for the money back.

Do you really belive this? Most of us people only make tranfers of a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, so that may be not a big deal for a bank. But there are people out there transfering millons and billions. If a small bank received a large fraudulent money transfer and would have to reverse the money out of its own funds - the bank could simply collapse.

I would love to be on the Annual General Meating of the bank, when the CEO presents the annual figures and tells the audience: We got a xx Million loss this year, but it was not our fault. A bank in China made an erronous bank transfer to one of our account holders and we had to give them the money back out of our own funds. We are still looking for the account holder and hope he still has the money when we find him.

HRoth




msg:3836464
 1:25 pm on Jan 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

"Even if the bank makes an error it can not reverse the transfer when the amount has already been credited to the account of the recipient."

This is what your banker who handles international wire transfers told you? Which bank is this? We can all switch our accounts to that bank, and then we can all start engaging in business with Nigeria, because we stand to make millions in fraudulent transfers.

Do you really think it ends with you closing an account at a bank? I don't think you realize how easy it is to find people in the US. Your bank has your address, your social security number, the name of your business. Let's just pretend you received a deposit that turned out to be fraudulent, and you meanwhile took the money out and closed the account. Do you think your bank is just going to dab their lips with a napkin and say, "Oh well--no use crying over spilt milk"? Or do you think they are going to come after you hammer and tong? Do you think they will give up because you won't pay? Or do you think they will get a judgment against you for that money? Are you going to go live in the woods with that deposit so the court can't find you or what? It's crazy.

jecasc




msg:3836472
 1:35 pm on Jan 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

This is what your banker who handles international wire transfers told you? Which bank is this? We can all switch our accounts to that bank, and then we can all start engaging in business with Nigeria, because we stand to make millions in fraudulent transfers.

Have you even read my post? What part of "the bank can try to get the funds back from the account holder" did you not understand? In which way does what I wrote differ from what you said?

I can tell you only tell you what my experience is from thousands of bank transfers, over the past years.

1. There has never been a case where the bank simply "reversed" a bank transfer - which means simply taking money from my account.

2. There has been one case where someone forged my signature and made a wire transfer from my account. The bank immediatly told me they were liable and I would get my money back. They would try to reverse the transfer if it had not yet been completed. If it had already been completetd they would try to get the money back from the account holder - the account holder - not the other bank. But that would not be my business. If they could not get the money this would be their problem not mine.

3. I had several cases where by mistake small amounts of money were credited to my account. The bank never simply removed the money back to the original account. They always asked me if they could pass on my personal information to the account holder the transfer originated from. Or they gave me the contact information so I could contact the the account holder myself.

So to put it all in a nutshell: A money transfer can not be reversed. But that does not mean you can keep the money when you get money by error or by fraud.

So if you receive an order from John Doe in Nigeria and the money comes from an account in Austria with the name of Gretchen Müller - you would be stupid to send out the goods - at least without contacting the bank in Austria and asking them to verify that the transfer was carried out by the account holder.

[edited by: jecasc at 2:24 pm (utc) on Jan. 28, 2009]

Green_Grass




msg:3836484
 1:48 pm on Jan 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

Yeah.. I checked with my bank and they told me not to worry abt. phishing anymore becuase they can always get the money back for me.

Now, I sleep easy. No more worries abt. any one fraudulently hacking into my bank account and trasferring it out.. The bank can always get the Wire transfer reversed.

If you believe that, you will believe anything.

jsinger




msg:3836494
 2:06 pm on Jan 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

If money transfers were not final the international banking system simply would not work.

Is that the best argument you have? :)

Starlight




msg:3836503
 2:26 pm on Jan 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

"People might put more effort in their answers if you had more than 6 posts and I presume have not offered any help to others here with questions of their own."

jsinger, Ouch! Did I touch a nerve? I did not say that you were the "pseudo-expert". No need to be antagonistic. I was searching for my answer about banks reversing wire transfers and found this forum last week. I just joined and will gladly respond to anyone IF I have knowledge or experience that will benefit them.

jecasc, Thank you for keeping the thread on track. That is the information that I was searching for. Someone with genuine experience. My bank has assured me that once the funds are in my account they can not touch the funds unless there is a court order to freeze the funds or seizure by an agency with the authority to do so.

Thanks again to all that have participated here.

thorsten iceland




msg:3838490
 7:13 pm on Jan 30, 2009 (gmt 0)

Green_Grass wrote:
Are we talking commercials here? Your comment is an effective discussion stopper not only in this forum but while discussing effectively anything. Should I now be required to give a Bank Guarantee ? before posting. Your naivette makes me laugh!

No, it was meant to encourage some critical thinking.

jsinger wrote in another thread [webmasterworld.com]:
Talk to a top exec at your bank about security, not a teller or a branch manager. Then talk to another one. Tell them you are RELYING on them for advice (so you can sue them and the bank later if need be). Get a guarantee in writing from them that the wire transfer can't be reversed. Be sure to tell them the order is coming from Ghana. (as in next door to Nigeria)

Both my comment and jsinger's suggestion to get a binding legal opinion, are on the same lines, intended to raise the question in the mind of Starlight of who bears the costs of 'bad' advice.

It is not any of the posters on this board who have any money or goods on the line here, it is you Starlight. Knowing the reality of the situation in dealing with these particular two high risk countries I made my comment about Green_Grass putting up a bond to demonstrate that he does not have to 'put up his money' where his opinion is so to speak.

If I am wrong you have lost nothing but opportunity. If Green_Grass/Mr Hard is wrong you have lost the goods you shipped, and gained legal issues from your bank if you take the funds out before they are reversed.

(Green_Grass' experience shared, while valuable regarding textile B2B with Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt, Chile, Brazil, Mauritius, Ecuador, Peru, is unlikely to be applicable to Nigeria and Ghana for more general merchandise which are two of the highest risk countries in the world for fraudulent orders in the present era.)

In another thread [webmasterworld.com] LifeinAsia explained a crucial difference well:
Fraud from willingly sending money to a supposed Nigerian prince is one thing.

What some people are calling fraudulent wire transfers would be better described as theft- someone gets access to someone else's bank account and sends wire transfers without the account owner's knowledge or permission.

My colleague Björn wrote in the same thread [webmasterworld.com] as jsinger above, reminding that:
There are several ways for a scammer to get access to an account and/or to perform fraudulent transfers. From phishing attacks, social engineering against the real customer or bank, to simple bribery. It is not that difficult to temporarily impersonate the legimitate account holder for a period of time, or for one transaction.

So this argument that "It MUST work both ways" falls down because a wire sent to you related to a Nigerian or Ghanaian order from a compromised account, will ultimately be reversed when the real owner proves it wasn't him/her.

If you send money to a Nigerian 419 scammer you won't get it back because it was you that sent it. You may have sent it under false pretenses but you sent it. That is the crucial difference.

This 46 message thread spans 2 pages: 46 ( [1] 2 > >
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / WebmasterWorld / Ecommerce
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved