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when to reject an order with bad CC data?
when should you reject an order with bad CC data?
yoderfarms

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 9:18 am on Nov 17, 2006 (gmt 0)

are there any general rules about when to cancel an order where a user has entered a wrong name and/or billing address and/or zip and/or CVV?

i.e. if its in ohio vs brazil
i.e. order size
i.e. which elements provide the best measure of security (name, address, zip)

in most cases i can call the bank or email the user and have the issue resolved in one day but some people dont check their email and sometimes the banks still say the address is incorrect after trying the one entered (possibly due to a mispelling or placement of periods in P.O. Box vs PO Box) or the customer may give me a new address thats also incorrect according to the bank... i did have an order that looked suspicious (8 of the same item) and the address was incorrect, i called the customer who's wife answered and got another incorrect address, finally the customer responded by email with a third correct address.

right now i have two pending orders

in one case, a customer from SEWELL NJ entered his first name on the name line and his last name on the address part 1 line and his address on the address part 2 line .... his ZIP and CVV were correct and a call to his bank indicated that his address was valid but that he had not yet activated his card by calling the 800 number on the sticker! if this is the case why do I have a 6 digit authorization from the FDMS gateway to charge his card for $38.28? what happens if i charge it? do you think his bank might be in error? as long as i charge it and wait until the batch is submitted i'm clear right? it looks like this is the real cardholder.

in the second case a customer from cool CA US entered his CVV and ZIP correct but his address is bad. he claimed over the phone he has used it before as a billing address without incident and he recently filed a change of addresw form and that his bills used to go to a PO box which i wrote down (but it had a different zip so i knew it couldn't be the addy on file with the gateway). Anyways I called his card company and they said neither address was correct.

Whats your opinion?

How do the pros go about snooping these orders out?

Is there a general set of rules to use? If the orders are normal sized, the zips correct, the CVV codes are there, and the orders are going within the United States should I just risk it? Is there some type of purchasable insurance against fraud for the merchant? It seems buying coverage for this would be cheaper than all of the time I spend on the phone trying to prevent fraud. if anyone knows of a company that does this please pm me.

by the wauy i use yahoo! stores with their FDMS gateway. I'm thinking of switching to osCommerce. can anyone suggest a gateway that would allow me to require the user to enter correct information (or a gateway that offers fraud protection coverage).

-andy yoder

 

RailMan

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 1:41 pm on Nov 17, 2006 (gmt 0)

if it's wrong, accept it's wrong, just cancel it
don't try to find reasons why all the bank systems might be wrong or why you should accept the order - unless or course you like to gamble with your business .......
and if shoppers don't know their own address, they're hardly likely to remember that the strange charge on their credit card was because they placed an order from you

FalseDawn

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 3:01 pm on Nov 17, 2006 (gmt 0)


Is there a general set of rules to use?

Yes, common sense, and lots of it!

If the CVV is wrong, then the order should automatically be rejected (no manual intervention)


and if shoppers don't know their own address

It's usually not quite so black and white. I used to have my settings to automatically reject incorrect addresses, but got so many valid orders that just didn't _quite_ match and were wrongly rejected, that I had to move to a manual check.
For example, they could enter ZIP 12354 when they meant 12345, or slightly mis-spell their street name.
AVS checking is not perfect!

You could try a white pages lookup on their phone number and also look at the email address. If John Smith orders and the email address is johnsmith123@blahblah.com, then that's a plus, for example.

Several of the same item with overnight shipping can be dodgy.
I don't ship to any even "slightly" dodgy countries - we all know which ones they are, and in fact block IPs completely from several countries.

To be honest, a small amount like $38 is unlikely to be fraud - the fraudsters generally are greedier than that!

[edited by: FalseDawn at 3:03 pm (utc) on Nov. 17, 2006]

FalseDawn

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 3:06 pm on Nov 17, 2006 (gmt 0)

Also, an additional check I always do out of habit is to do a reverse IP lookup (my cart records the IP address of the buyer)

[google.com...]

This generally gives me an idea of the location of their ISP, and if it looks fishy or not.

yoderfarms

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 11:38 pm on Nov 17, 2006 (gmt 0)


You could try a white pages lookup on their phone number and also look at the email address.

What's the best free provider for address lookups?

additonally, there are pages that let you reverse lookup by phone number to see if the listed phone number matches the name and address. but some are free and some aren't. any tips on where the free ones are at?

yoderfarms

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 12:43 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)

Finally -- is there fraud insurance for merchants?

and

Can I charge to a card the user hasn't activated yet when I have an AUTH CODE and everything else looks good to go?

jsinger

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 1:01 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)

Is there some type of purchasable insurance against fraud

You want insurance against $38 losses?

That is a normal cost of doing business and should be built into your cost structure. Raise your prices or shipping a tiny bit and that should cover 100% of your losses. Vastly more efficient than buying some policy which would come with all sort to stipulations.

And get a big loss or two and your insurance will be cancelled, anyway.

Eliminate shipping high risk items to high risk places and your loss ratio should be way under 1%.

yoderfarms

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 1:41 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)


You want insurance against $38 losses?
That is a normal cost of doing business and should be built into your cost structure. Raise your prices or shipping a tiny bit and that should cover 100% of your losses. Vastly more efficient than buying some policy which would come with all sort to stipulations.

And get a big loss or two and your insurance will be cancelled, anyway.

Eliminate shipping high risk items to high risk places and your loss ratio should be way under 1%.

good point. i could just raise my prices.

does anyone have a list of high risk countries, or even places within the USA?

jsinger

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 1:58 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)

does anyone have a list of high risk countries, or even places within the USA?

Look up "Nigeria" in the search form. LOL! The topic of high risk ship-to's has come up many times in the past.

If you're new to ecommerce, it is best to start by selling in the USA only. (throw in Canada if you want, but any export can be complicated).

Problem is that most sellers do it backwards... which is to sell everyone, then eliminate the scammy places as the inevitably get ripped off.

ispy



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 2:12 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)

It's always better to check on things yourself first. Contact the customer as a last resort and be prepared to cancel if you have to push them for info. or if they can't provide accurate info.

The reason you should contact them as a last resort is because often they don't know what is really going on either and legitimate customers become spooked when you call with a problem they do not understand.

Some of them just say forget it and think it's easier to try again somewhere else and are not always understanding of a merchants need to have exact address matches, perhaps assuming it's your problem. Others are fickle and change their mind. For these reasons I have decided to "gamble" and let certain things slip by with a fair amount of success, but I really enjoy getting in there and investigating before doing so. I mean cross checking IP addresses, matching phone numbers with cities and delivery addresses, and checking message machines at the delivery address phone number. Melissadata is a good free online resource for lookups.

RedWolf

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 2:19 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)

I think a lot will depend on what you are selling. If it is a high fraud risk, I would be much more careful. That said, I would probably take the chance on the first order and refuse the second one.

As far as overseas countries, I am fairly conservative. I only take orders from the USA, Canada, Australia, parts of Northern Europe, and occasionally Japan. I don't even respond to orders from Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, or South America.

One thing to be careful of in overseas shipping is export and import restrictions.

yoderfarms

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 7:46 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)


The reason you should contact them as a last resort is because often they don't know what is really going on either and legitimate customers become spooked when you call with a problem they do not understand.

copy that 10-4... spookage happens or their family members treat you like a telemarketer. plus if you run a home based business and are in between loads of laundry, are far into the evening, and perhaps on a sick day (you know the kind of sick day where you keep working) you may not sound totally professional on the phone.

[edited by: yoderfarms at 8:14 am (utc) on Nov. 18, 2006]

yoderfarms

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 8:02 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)

Okay well what are the "safe countries." then?

As a both buyer and a seller, through ebay and other various ventures, I've always been satisfied doing business with the U.K, Australia, Holland, Germany and Spain.

Italy has been good 95% of the time: in terms of receiving ebay auction payments and avoiding complaints of non-received goods. France was good about 85% of the time in terms of sending payment for winning auctions and good 99% of the time in terms of receiving shipments, however they complained a bit more that usual about shipping time and product satisfaction.

India is a bit shaky to buy stuff from, I'll tell you that much. I'd have to guess the same about selling to them.

Actually Canada has only been slightly better than Italy in terms of receving customer payments and customers not complaining about non receipt.

Scandinavia seems like a safe bet. The countries rank lowest in corruption. Switzerland has among the highest standard of living. New Zealand, well for some reason everyone talks about moving there so it must me ok.

So here's my list **NOTE a "[" and a "]" denotes a guess based on location and political/socioeconomic characteristics

Best Foreign Countries:
U.K, Australia, Holland, Germany and Spain. [Switzerland]

Pretty good foreign countries:
Canada, Italy, [Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, New Zealand]

Potentially worthwhile foreign countries
France

Approach with Caution:
[India]

Just say no:
Nigeria

As you can see I'm pretty ignorant about South America and Eastern Europe/Asia. I understand there's an exploding middle class (in parts of Asia that is) ... but some of the countries in these regions (and their inhabitants) are corrupt and lack desirable foreign market traits like steady government/laws and accountability.

yoderfarms

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 8:11 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)

anyone want to add to tbis?

yoderfarms

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 8:17 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)


As far as overseas countries, I am fairly conservative. I only take orders from the USA, Canada, Australia, parts of Northern Europe, and occasionally Japan.

thanks .. which countries in western/northern europe do you deal with?


I don't even respond to orders from Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, or South America.

thanks again, i think you're right on those


One thing to be careful of in overseas shipping is export and import restrictions.

Definately. These are avaialable on the USPS site correct?

Wlauzon

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 8:29 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)

We sell to around 40 countries generally - basically what used to be "the free world". Most of Europe (not most ex-communist countries), japan, hong kong. We sell to some others only with verified wire transfers. Some, like Nigeria, we don't sell to at all - we tried a few way back when, and even when the money was legit, you seem to have a 50%+ chance of the shipments being stolen.

I think just behind nigeria and gambia is mexico and some other SA countries. We do those on a case by case basis. The problem with most of them is not fraud, but shipments getting "lost" (ie, stolen).

yoderfarms

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 8:35 am on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)

can you list them? (the top 40) that would be a super nice thing to do!

sja65

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 4:37 pm on Nov 18, 2006 (gmt 0)

UK, Canada, NZ, Australia and the Western European and Scandanavian countries you can treat about like people from the US as far as fraud rates. When you ship to these countries, you have to watch out for how you are shipping. Most of them will have some type of VAT (value added tax) and if they are new to ordering from the US, they won't be expecting it. Also, some of these countries have lousy postal systems (Italy, France and Spain come to mind), so don't ship to them through the postal service, use someone like UPS, FedEx or DHL.

In South America, Central America and the miscellaneous island states, the individuals are usually fine, but delivery is terrible. Always use a trackable private courier. Mexico is the exception for us - we are very strict as to which orders we will send as they tend to have higher fraud rates.

In Africa, you don't really have many options. The only country there that we will ship to is South Africa.

Most of the middle east is fine. We have to watch what we send, as so many things that are normal to us would be outlawed there.

Eastern Europe and the old USSR are problems as there is a decent sized middle class with internet access, but fraud rates are way too high.

In Asia, the only place we won't ship is Indonesia. Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, Hong Kong, South Korea are all fine.

Only shipped 1 package to Antarctica, but it made it so I'll add that to my good list :)

Watch out for Nigerian and Indonesian addresses where they choose a different country. I think they are hoping that the post office will see it is the wrong country and forward it on. Nigerians tend to use Scandanavian countries and the Indonesians tend to use Singapore.

RailMan

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 10:16 am on Nov 19, 2006 (gmt 0)


and if shoppers don't know their own address

It's usually not quite so black and white. I used to have my settings to automatically reject incorrect addresses, but got so many valid orders that just didn't _quite_ match and were wrongly rejected, that I had to move to a manual check.
For example, they could enter ZIP 12354 when they meant 12345, or slightly mis-spell their street name.
AVS checking is not perfect!

nothing is perfect (except me!)
but if customers enter their address incorrectly it's no an AVS problem, it's a customer problem - they either don't know their address properly or they're too stupid to be allowed to buy from me
never blame AVS or other automated systems when it's customer incompetence or customer stupidity

jsinger

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 11:09 am on Nov 19, 2006 (gmt 0)

it's a customer problem - they either don't know their address properly or they're too stupid to be allowed to buy from me

We gladly accept orders from the stupid, those who can't spell, and poor typists, in preference to rejecting 40% of the potential orders.

We frequently phone customers and they inevitably appreciate that. Sometimes when we phone, they add to their online order.

jbinbpt

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 11:57 am on Nov 19, 2006 (gmt 0)

What's the best free provider for address lookups?

additonally, there are pages that let you reverse lookup by phone number to see if the listed phone number matches the name and address. but some are free and some aren't. any tips on where the free ones are at

Just type the phone number into google

oldpro

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 3:17 pm on Nov 19, 2006 (gmt 0)

Mexico is the exception for us - we are very strict as to which orders we will send as they tend to have higher fraud rates.

We have a manufacturing operation in Mexico, so we tend to get many orders from there. CC fraud is low, but always use a private shipper...depending on the declared value on the customs form it may or may not get to the customer. The postal service there is known for just making packages disappear into thin air.

yoderfarms

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3159636 posted 12:27 pm on Nov 22, 2006 (gmt 0)



What's the best free provider for address lookups?
additonally, there are pages that let you reverse lookup by phone number to see if the listed phone number matches the name and address. but some are free and some aren't. any tips on where the free ones are at

Just type the phone number into google

I found a pretty good tool called Reverse Phone Directory where you can use the phone number they entered and see if the address that pops up matches the address. Then sometimes the phone number is under their wife's name so you can call and say, "is your phone listed under someone else's" name and they give you the correct answer that's another good tactic. And with the IP lookup just ask them their ISP to verify, if they don't know their kids will :)

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