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US claims all .com and .net websites are in its jurisdiction
Brett_Tabke

WebmasterWorld Administrator brett_tabke us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 1:37 pm on Jul 5, 2011 (gmt 0)

This sounds pretty radical to me:

The US's Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency (ICE) is targeting overseas websites it believes are breaking US copyrights whether or not their servers are based in America or there is another direct US link, said Erik Barnett, the agency's assistant deputy director.

As long as a website's address ends in .com or .net, if it is implicated in the spread of pirated US-made films, TV or other media it is a legitimate target to be closed down or targeted for prosecution, Barnett said. While these web addresses are traditionally seen as global, all their connections are routed through Verisign, an internet infrastructure company based in Virginia, which the agency believes is sufficient to seek a US prosecution.

As well as sites that directly host or stream pirated material, ICE is also focusing on those that simply provide links to it elsewhere. There remains considerable doubt as to whether this is even illegal in Britain the only such case to be heard before a British court, involving a site called TV-Links, was dismissed by a judge in February last year.

[guardian.co.uk...]



Erik Barnett, assistant deputy director of ICE said told the Guardian that the agency will actively target web sites that are breaking US copyright laws even if their servers are not based in the US. According to Barnett, all web sites that use the .com and .net TLDs are fair game and that, since the Domain Name Service (DNS) indexes for those web sites are routed through the US-based registry Versign, ICE believes it has enough to "seek a US prosecution". [theinquirer.net...]


 

bwnbwn

WebmasterWorld Senior Member bwnbwn us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 2:15 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Hmm so who do we get to police the net. Lets see UN what a joke there, so we start up another police unit for the net. Yet another bloated pile of trash we will have to pay for. I am a US citizen and frankly I am getting sick of paying to be the world police. Why the US has to stick their nose into the entire world's business is beyond me. It's like having a neighbor that just can't mind their own business. This country has made the same mistake over and over and over at the cost of millions of lives on both sides. I really think the world is getting tired of the US being a neighbor that just can't let others work out their own problems. This new deal is just another way they can go after a website/domain owner in another country. Does the US not think other countries have pretty much the same laws a we do, and are able to shut down a site commiting a crime?

kapow

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 2:32 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Unless copyrights are being broken, who cares?
If authorities didn't abuse power, we'd have nothing to fear.

.com has always been global, it's for commercial business.
Its all nice equality until it makes a power difference for the US then we get the real agenda.

USA doesn't recognise the International court
Ouch! I didn't know that.

Why the US has to stick their nose into the entire world's business is beyond me.
Just a wild guess, maybe something to do with money, power, oil, trade, more money, more power...
bwnbwn

WebmasterWorld Senior Member bwnbwn us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 2:38 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

kapow I use to think the same thing but if you look back this just isn't the case. In fact is has cost us money, we lost power, caused the world to resent us more, and added to the burden to pay for the continued mistakes our gov. has continued to make.

kapow

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 3:14 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Funny how you thought I'm American. I'm a Brit in London ;)

walkman



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 3:15 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Why the US has to stick their nose into the entire world's business is beyond me....

Just a wild guess, maybe something to do with money, power, oil, trade, more money, more power...

Not to get too political but the EU loves when US money and blood is used to fight in Afghanistan and ME for "money, power, oil, trade, more money, more power..." You benefit from the too, no? Your gasoline would be at $18 a litter if ME was a (bigger) mess and bombs would explode in shopping malls daily if Al Qaeda could do what they wanted to. So how about some credit to USA, that's going broke trying to keep some world peace? Not perfect and plenty of mistakes have been made but people need to chill out a bit.

You declared war on Libya and run out of bombs 8 hours later, so USA has to, reluctantly, for a change, jump in do almost everything alone.

But anyway, USA also 'invented' the internet and has driven innovation in that field so if one country deserves to control it's the USA. That's the truth.

SevenCubed

WebmasterWorld Senior Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 3:50 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Regulation of all facets of the Internet (International Network), with the exception of country specific domains, should be overseen by an International delegation. If any one country feels it must have sole control over it -- build their in-country network and disconnect itself from the world. No great loss for the world, it will only affect the citizens within the uncompromising country who's knowledge will continue to shrink. Poor education, driven by limited knowledge, leads to an eventual collapse of that society. Excessive commercial control is already dumbing-down the Internet as it is

And why is it that some of the world's country specific domains, such as .co, become world property? Aren't those types of decisions controlled by ICANN, and American non-profit? Why is it ok to pillage another country's domain because it closely fits the .com yet it isn't ok for .com to come under control of an international delegation of countries?

In a day when barriers should be collapsing more controlling countries are raising them out of fear of loss-of-control.

If the USA wants the .com's -- bah, take em. Just to be safe, because of this noise, going forward I'll be registering all domains as .ca just to avoid potential pitfalls down the road. It's not worth the hassle.

Boo! Did ya jump?

IanTurner

WebmasterWorld Administrator ianturner us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 4:09 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

But anyway, USA also 'invented' the internet and has driven innovation in that field so if one country deserves to control it's the USA. That's the truth.


Tim Berners-Lee [en.wikipedia.org...]
Robert Cailliau [en.wikipedia.org...]

walkman



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 4:32 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

@IanTurner
How about we go slightly back on time [en.wikipedia.org...]
[en.wikipedia.org...]

IBM = US CORP
XEROX PARC = US Corp
MSFT = US CORP
INTEL = US CORP
BELL LABS = US CORP
APPLE = US CORP
YHOO + Altavista = US Corp
GOOGLE = US Corp
...

kapow

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 4:39 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

So how about some credit to USA, that's going broke trying to keep some world peace?

That would be 'going broke because it de-regulated banking'. Then other dumb governments (like mine) copied the US.

The sooner we get the world wide web out of the juristiction of any one government, the better (but I really doubt it will happen).

HuskyPup



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 4:43 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

See how easy it is to start a war?

Should Europe, Russia, China, Japan, India et al start claiming intellectual property rights and back taxes from ex-pats and emigrants in the USA for the past couple hundred years or so?

Here's a cliff everyone, let's jump off it!

Alcoholico

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 4:43 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Back in the old days, not really very long ago, you could access a website both ways, using the .com postfix and also using .com.us. That's a fact. (Even if it is not on wikapedia)
Despite of the horrible things I can think about the US government, someone has to do something to protect copyright holders from the current horde of pirates, though I would start with the companies who finance them, you probably know their names...

Pontus_swe

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 4:51 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Copyright aside. What are the real wider, long term implications of this?


I think things like this in general will speed up the development of a more decentralized, open and encrypted internet. Im sure a few geek are working on it right now.

and bombs would explode in shopping malls daily if Al Qaeda could do what they wanted to


OT: Thats kinda circular reasoning, Al Qaeda gets a lot of support BECAUSE USA is fighting in Afghanistan and ME. The irony...

SevenCubed

WebmasterWorld Senior Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 4:52 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Copyright protection is only the guise of a deeper rooted motive. Promoting this proposal as such will make it less susceptible to resistance from within. It doesn't take a Bachelor's degree to understand what's going on.

walkman



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 5:11 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

OT: Thats kinda circular reasoning, Al Qaeda gets a lot of support BECAUSE USA is fighting in Afghanistan and ME. The irony...

True, if the Taliban had not taken our sheep for food we would not have gone there. It's not like it was a heaven for Al Qaeda or anything.

How about you say THANK YOU America. As we type here back and forth the US navy--at a great cost--is circling the globe making sure the trade routes are open, the Somali pirates don't hijack (too many) ships, that China leaves India, Taiwan (like those chips in your computer?) Japan etc alone, US drone planes are flying in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen and god knows here to take out an Al Qaeda or two that may be plotting to blow a buss in your country. All these benefit, at least, all of the western world.

The US Army, US Marines, Air Force and US Navy are the reason EU spends barely nothing in defense, that's the truth and you have done so for 60+ years. Do you think Iran, Saddamm in his day, USSR, Russia, North Korea, China etc fear more a stern letter from Ashton and the threat of a EU meeting or the US Military?

Listen to Gates, USA has had it, being ungrateful is pushing it.
[pbs.org...]
ROBERT GATES: Frankly, many of those allies sitting on the sidelines do so not because they do not want to participate, but simply because they cannot. The military capabilities simply aren't there.

The mightiest military alliance in history is only 11 weeks into an operation against a poorly armed regime in a sparsely populated country, yet many allies are beginning to run short of munitions, requiring the U.S. once more to make up the difference.

Your GDP is even bigger than USA, start sharing costs, if you don't America to "police the world". If Russia starts to roll tanks into EU territory, you'll be all occupied by the time you agree on the text of latter to send to them. US Military is what stops many of you from being Georgia.

Now more on topic: The problem is that UN sucks at domain management and ICANN has shown it's incompetence with UDRP where names are being lost for stupid reasons. What to do?

Fotiman

WebmasterWorld Senior Member fotiman us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 5:19 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)


So what are the implications for Internet Gambling, Cafe's in Amsterdam, Radical Muslim sites or anything else that happens to offend the US authorities.

They've already gone after Internet Gambling, seizing the websites of Full Tilt Poker, Poker Stars, and Absolute Poker back in April.

thirteen



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 6:17 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

If the USA wants the .com's -- bah, take em. Just to be safe, because of this noise, going forward I'll be registering all domains as .ca just to avoid potential pitfalls down the road. It's not worth the hassle.


I agree with you on replacing .com with something else. Going forward, my domains will be .info. It looks like .info is the only generic choice available for the world public.

I like .ca but European registry don't offer that because .ca is reserved for residents of Canada only.

On a side note, anyone noticed that Microsoft announced they are selling their parked .com names too. Let's get rid of them while they can still get paid a premium for it. The .com will lose favor in the world stage soon. People will realize that they lost control and safeguards over their .com property.
[webmasterworld.com...]

Since linking to a pirate site is an offense, Black Hatters can use the comment section on their competitors' site to post a link and report the site to ICE for violation. Bam! the site gets seized for copyright infringement.

I can hear webmasters shutting off Web 2.0 all over the world.

[edited by: thirteen at 6:21 pm (utc) on Jul 6, 2011]

SevenCubed

WebmasterWorld Senior Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 6:20 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

because .ca is reserved for residents of Canada only


Or American companies with Canadian lawyers willing to allow their business address to be used as that comnpany's mailing address.

Hugene

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 6:34 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

This is really wrong. IMHO the US government is overstretching into an area that it shouldn't. This whole idea of using the fact that one machine/component of a particular service sits in the US as an excuse to hijack that service is really flawed. Information does not know borders, it should be dealt with at an international level.

For example that whole thing with the MS cloud saying they would have to divulge info about its EU users to the US, that's pure insanity.

Regardless, those breaking copyrights will just move to a .ca domain. I personally am welcoming them and will keep watching South Park online for free (Google it).

Bernard Marx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 6:38 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

all their connections are routed through Verisign


Isn't this statement just a cynical attempt to fool people ?

koan

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 8:58 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Can we not make this about the US vs the world and more about the danger of one specific country's control over global TLDs, even if it's that way for historical reasons, it needs to change. I think some people are hypocritical here because it suits them to have their own country and laws control it, but they would be screaming bloody murder if it was another. How about thinking more objectively and wishing for a neutral system that works for everyone.

walkman



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 10:34 pm on Jul 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

I think some people are hypocritical here because it suits them to have their own country and laws control it, but they would be screaming bloody murder if it was another. How about thinking more objectively and wishing for a neutral system that works for everyone.

Biased yes, I admit. I've had nightmares of people trying to take my perfectly generic names away with phony arguments in UDRP. I find it reassuring that if I lost in a UDRP pleading, I can find a previous filed case, change names /dates and file it within a day or two in court, all by myself. Since argument are in my favor and federal judges actually as fair as you can get them, I am actually very relaxed on that department.

The question is who should be in charge? Who should judge any disputes? It's true that .com is universal but US has probably most of its use. ICANN and WIPO are big failures IMO.

What US gov is doing in this story is a different but slippery slope may mean that the next step might be what we're talking about.

HuskyPup



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 4:41 pm on Jul 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

It's true that .com is universal but US has probably most of its use.


I wonder if jmcc can confirm that or not?

greenleaves

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 6:29 pm on Jul 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

Note to self:

In order to push my interests on others when they would clearly not accept it:

1- Justify 'extreme action in extreme cases' based on some cases being 'extreme'.

2- Then after everyone forgot that my extreme action is extreme, and they see it as non-extreme, I can then extend the use of 'extreme action' to non 'extreme cases'.

The really sad part is how easy it is to dupe people with this.

Hmmm, what does this remind me: [en.wikipedia.org...]

graeme_p

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 3:50 pm on Jul 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

So linking to something like Project Gutenberg Australia could mean your .com/.net domain is seized?

The fact is .com has been presented as the universal default - if you want a global audience you use .com, .net or .org.

waynne

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 12:35 pm on Jul 9, 2011 (gmt 0)

This is the thin end of the wedge. A domain name is nothing more than a right to use that name. Juristiction should be down to the physical location of where the site is hosted, or where the site owner is located.

If I buy a new company name and logo rights from America and use this illegally I would not expect to face American courts but those in the country the server resides, or where the plaintiff is located.

Will non US companies be required to pay US taxes from .com domains? Where will this end?

I'm not against going after pirates and other illegal acts but the issue of juristiction is frought with problems after this ruling.

Simsi

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 4:16 pm on Jul 20, 2011 (gmt 0)


They've already gone after Internet Gambling, seizing the websites of Full Tilt Poker, Poker Stars, and Absolute Poker back in April.


Actually it goes a step further than that. A couple of years back the Governor of Kentucky ordered ICANN to hand over a number of .com domains of Internet Gambling companies. The interesting part is that Internet Gambling [sports betting excluded] is NOT illegal at Federal level, but it IS in Kentucky.

The message therefore is that if your website is .net or .com and it contravenes any law of any individual US State it has a high risk of being seized and shut down.

graeme_p

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 10:23 am on Jul 22, 2011 (gmt 0)

ICE has also seized tvshack.cc

lucy24

WebmasterWorld Senior Member lucy24 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 7:57 pm on Jul 22, 2011 (gmt 0)

A couple of years back the Governor of Kentucky ordered ICANN to hand over a number of .com domains of Internet Gambling companies.

How? That is, by what physical means, and what court backed him up? I can order you to give me your car keys, but that doesn't mean you're going to do it.

gpmgroup

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 12:39 am on Jul 24, 2011 (gmt 0)

It's true that .com is universal but US has probably most of its use.


I wonder if jmcc can confirm that or not?


~57 million of 96 million are US, next is China with around 5 million, Germany 4 Million and the UK 3.5m

HuskyPup



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 3:24 pm on Jul 26, 2011 (gmt 0)

So ~59.4% are US registered, I wonder how many are actively used, how many are for sale and how many are simply parked with ads?

Just curious.

graeme_p

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4335160 posted 6:48 am on Jul 27, 2011 (gmt 0)

Also, how many have registered through anonymity services or other agents of the real owner.

I assume those numbers are based on the address of the registrant?

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