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css2.1, Colour and MathML
Recommendations - Time to Party?

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member

Msg#: 4323421 posted 1:41 pm on Jun 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

It's been a long wait - and now we have three!

W3C released an update to the core CSS standard (2.1) to reflect the current state of support for CSS features, and to serve as the stable foundation for future extensions. From Press Release [w3.org]

Colour and MathML made Recommendation status as well w3 [w3.org]

Who's celebrating?



WebmasterWorld Senior Member tedster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

Msg#: 4323421 posted 9:43 pm on Jun 9, 2011 (gmt 0)

As an amateur mathematician, I'm really happy that MathML is making strides. In the little spare time I have these days, I love probing various areas of math, and many of the authors have been severely challenged by the web so far. I don't want to see math formulas represented as gifs and pngs.

It's a shame that inconsistent browser support has held up progress for so long - to finally achieve stability is a serious accomplishment - more political than technical I'd assume ;)


WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member

Msg#: 4323421 posted 12:51 pm on Jun 13, 2011 (gmt 0)

Hi Ted,

I agree - maybe not so "practical", but a mile-stone anyway. I don't have a great deal of use for maths, but your point about MathML prompted me to read the recommendation in more detail. It really is quite interesting once you delve in!


WebmasterWorld Administrator webwork us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

Msg#: 4323421 posted 5:32 pm on Jun 13, 2011 (gmt 0)

What have you implemented or applied from the newly announced/adopted standards?

What 1 or 2 or 3 newly adopted standards/charges are you advising others to adopt/apply/implement ASAP? That is, what do changes do you believe are most important or significant or helpful?


P.S. Welcome to the marvelous world of moderating . . and thanks for picking up and rowing the CSS oars. :)


WebmasterWorld Senior Member lucy24 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time Top Contributors Of The Month

Msg#: 4323421 posted 10:27 pm on Jun 13, 2011 (gmt 0)

I'm still waiting for someone to make font-size-adjust live up to its potential so it can come roaring back (was in 2.0, removed from 2.1, never worked in most browsers but glorious when it did) :(


WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member

Msg#: 4323421 posted 2:21 am on Jun 18, 2011 (gmt 0)

Hi webwork, and thanks for the welcome.

Hmmm ... so what has changed? As Ted said, "progress" has been held up, and css2.1 has switched status before, and is only a revision of css2 anyway - so why celebrate given not so much has really changed?

Well, guilt-free coding color:transparent ;)

For me the real significance of the three is that they confirm css is present, active, and current. Regardless of the flaws/deficiencies, people worked hard on this - and that should be acknowledged too. And css2.1 had to be resolved before css3 could be introduced - we see the implications of that in Colour being elevated on the very same day.

More broadly, we can argue the imperfections of the process, technical detail, and political issues. But (IMO) css2.1 at recommendation status emphasise the importance of the basic tools of the craft. I understand the excitement with the visuals available in css3, but the formatting models are the foundation for delivering usable, accessible content to users. Colour reinforces css is responding to technical and other changes, and MathML is a reminder to keep exploring and learning. A base of uniform knowledge, awareness and responsiveness to change and opportunities to expand knowledge are the minimums for any useful occupation - and gettihng all three on one day is worth celebrating.

What would I urge others to adopt/apply/implement? Not intending to be snide, but the recommendations!
Like them, dislike them ... learn them.
The abstract and sections 2.3-2.4 of css2.1 are easy reading and lay the philosophical foundation that puts the rest in context. I expect experienced coders are finding the css2.1 diff file [w3.org] more helpful as they're more concerned with the micro-detail, and it has been colour-coded to visually identify what has changed or been clarified. Of course the Implementation Report [w3.org] gives us a "snapshot" that helps when trying to resolve non-conformance issues.

@Luce, I'm calling "not fair" given font-size-adjust was removed - you have to choose something else ;)
I'm sure you've spotted it in CSS3 Fonts [w3.org] with medium priority, but the working group discussed it on June 11 so perhaps it's being pushed forward - like you I think it has lots of potential. But did any browser ever support it?

That highlights that getting the recs in place is one thing - for change, getting user agents to conform with the candidates is another. We can push user-agent adoption along by user vendor extensions to signal we want those properties/values in css3. But how do we push for useful things (like font-size-adjust) which aren't supported at all?


WebmasterWorld Senior Member lucy24 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time Top Contributors Of The Month

Msg#: 4323421 posted 6:26 am on Jun 18, 2011 (gmt 0)

But did any browser ever support it?

Yes, I just re-checked. Among my current browsers, the ones that don't use Apple Webkit all handle it--or try to--with varying success. Boldface is a problem, since it tends to run small in computer fonts and then they get confused.

So that's Opera yes, the Mozillas (Firefox and Camino) yes; Safari, Chrome and the text editor's www preview no. (Yes, I realize that sounds backward!) I did not try Lynx ;)

If you are curious, try this:
The Notes and Vocabulary (i.e. 80% of the book, because it's a textbook) are mixed serif and sans, so that's where font-size-adjust would really be useful. Most of the time I'll just set sans-serif to a smaller size, but this time I tried the alternative version.


WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member

Msg#: 4323421 posted 10:05 am on Jun 22, 2011 (gmt 0)

What a saga. Took me 4 days to convince Gutenberg I am not a direct threat to the literate world so I could view the page. That produced interesting results, confirmed by my own local tests.

Webkit has a bug report about this, Gecko has supported since 1.9, and ie has no support, so all explained, but Opera doesn't reconcile: I read your post as saying it is applied (on a Mac) but it isn't here on a PC. On checking Presto 2.9 is not supposed to support adjust, although other parts of the css3 Fonts module have been implemented for some time. Meanwhile, Dragonfly couldn't decide whether to report the explicitly set value, or just "none", and I couldn't find anything to indicate it would/should be different on a Mac. Quite a mystery!

But the limited implementation is such a shame - like you I think this is such a useful property - and from a design perspective as well as accessibility/usability. And your link to more complex text scenario just emphasises how really useful it could be.


WebmasterWorld Senior Member suzyuk us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

Msg#: 4323421 posted 10:49 pm on Jun 24, 2011 (gmt 0)

@alt.. not celebrating exactly.. but I am glad, like you, that things are happening. The "new" browser wars just entered yet another era.. and I'd like to go on record as saying that I do not for one minute think that we going to see x-browser "agreement" EVER AGAIN (the latest war), not that we got it like that ever in the first place.. now it's a whole new ballgame, what I DO LIKE is that no longer is CSS a mebbee ;) no matter what browser you're coding for you do need to know it, what it can, can't, should or you'd like it to do ;)

@webwork you know I like your probing questions, and I know that one wasn't directed at me in particular.. but me I do nothing more than I've ever done - I concentrate on my trade and listen to what the client wants

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